Question re: AxeFX3, stereo and sound engineers live

FarleyUK

FarleyUK

Inspired
Hi all,

FINALLY got a gig booked for the 30th of the month - and it'll not only be my first in 18 months, but also my first with the AFX3. I would typically play live through 2 RedSound cabs as a backline, and use stereo effects as we're only a 3 piece. I'm also the person in control of the FoH mix normally (lucky me....).

For this gig though, the venue have their own sound engineer, so I'll likely just go via the PA. However, I'm slightly confused on the 'optimal' setup for this if I want to use stereo; do I literally just give him the two outputs, tell him I'm running stereo and ask him to hard pan left and right? Or to keep it centered and use the cab pans and an enhancer block?

Appreciate it's a dumb question, just want to ensure it sounds as good as possible. Which reminds me, I need to practice....
 
FOH will need a stereo left and right out from you and they will have to hard pan. If you send him a signal that is centered, FOH cannot split it stereo because you are generating a mono signal. Do you know how to set up the cab block for stereo? All of my presets are stereo and the cab block is always the last block before the output. The enhancer block never does what I want it to so I achieve stereo with chorus and delay before my cab block. Like a real signal chain. The great thing about Fractal is that you have so many ways to get to your end result.
 
FlyInverted said:
FOH will need a stereo left and right out from you and they will have to hard pan. If you send him a signal that is centered, FOH cannot split it stereo because you are generating a mono signal. Do you know how to set up the cab block for stereo? All of my presets are stereo and the cab block is always the last block before the output. The enhancer block never does what I want it to so I achieve stereo with chorus and delay before my cab block. Like a real signal chain. The great thing about Fractal is that you have so many ways to get to your end result.
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Thanks - slightly confused though, as I thought the cab block summed to mono? So you're panning your cabs 100 and -100?
 
Assuming that the patch/s you're using are setup properly for stereo, all you should have to do is give the FOH guy a Left and Right signal and have him hard pan both channels left and right, you'll be fine. Putting all of your stereo effects after the cab block, IMO is better way to do this but if your cab block is last in the chain, just be sure and set the input mode of the cab block to Stereo.
 
The cab block doesn't sum to mono; it levels volume so that it's the same volume if you have one cab or four. You can pan however you like. I wouldn't force the stereo issue with the soundman. Let him do his thing; some people are adamantly against a stereo mix (personally, I love it).
 
I think (but jot 100% sure) you’ll want to check and see if the PA you’re going through is stereo or mono. Most of the gigs I do, they only run mono so giving them two outs from the Axe for me doesn’t produce a stereo signal. This may be incorrect thinking on my part though.
 
Brian Coonan said:
I think (but jot 100% sure) you’ll want to check and see if the PA you’re going through is stereo or mono. Most of the gigs I do, they only run mono so giving them two outs from the Axe for me doesn’t produce a stereo signal. This may be incorrect thinking on my part though.
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I have found this a lot as well. Many venues run speakers on both sides but run it mono. But I have also run into the stereo setups where they just won’t pan things
 
Yeah, stereo often doesn't translate well in a live environment. In a large venue, it's very difficult to maintain stereo separation and imaging. Think about it. If you have your FOH speakers split stage right and stage left, only the people in the middle of the venue in front of the stage will get anything close to a balanced stereo image. People on either side of the stage would only hear predominately that side's speakers and would basically not be able to hear anything that is hard panned to the other side. That's not good. They often get around this by running both channels to both sides. You can then hear both channels from pretty much anywhere in the venue, but there's no longer any channel separation and you basically have mono again.
 
I like my chain to be mono until my post effects like delays and whatnot. Stuff sounds too different left and right otherwise. Get the cab sound you like, keep it straight up the middle and any delays and whatnot after the fact, those will be stereo.
 
FarleyUK said:
Thanks - slightly confused though, as I thought the cab block summed to mono? So you're panning your cabs 100 and -100?
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The cab block needs to be set up to be stereo. If the input is set to L+R, the inputs will sum and you get mono out. Also, you can use 4 different IR's in the 4 IR slots. When you set the input to stereo, and here's the trick, you have to set the IR's up differently. You can only mix 2 instead of 4. Load the same IR into slots 1 and 2. Pan them hard left and right. Your output is now stereo. If you want to mix in a second IR, load another IR into slots 3 and 4. Now pan them hard left and right. For example, slot 1: F2 521 hard left. Slot 2: F2 521 hard right. Slot 3: F2 545 hard left. Slot 4: F2 545 hard right. Don’t forget to set the cab block input to stereo. I hope this helps.
 
You need to find out ahead of time how the PA is set up. If you have your patches set up with stereo effects , it will sound like total ass in mono. You will get either only half of the effects with one output , or phase cancelled effects with two outputs.
 
I run FOH occasionally. I will say that if you don't indicate that you're running stereo and your preferred panning, most sound engineers will just have it right up the center on two faders.

Hard panning in a venue will give a "phantom" center image, but it doesn't always translate well depending on the venue and the placement of the speakers. Depending on the sophistication of the venue, you may not even have speakers placed throughout that are wired correctly to the left or right of the FOH speaker, so most FOH guys just put it up the middle.

The key is that when you're running stereo, make sure you TEST IN MONO so you don't experience any phase cancellation (ie using the 2290 delay on default settings) or you will disappear or be out of phase. Unless you trust the engineer and know the venue well, I wouldn't rely on hard panning to make or break your guitar sound. Do some moderate L/R panning in your presets and you should be fine when in a venue.

I only go super left/right hard pans when I play a venue I absolutely know and have a sound engineer I trust.
 
Hard panning is tricky depending on speaker and seating arrangement. The space in feet from left to right can be quite far apart, not to mention directional aspects. In less than ideal triangulation, I wouldn’t pan harder than 30-50% if you have any one sided delays blah blah.
Setting up global perform pan knobs would help, to match the venue, but I have t tried that
 
I tend to shy away from stereo dependent tones, especially since I am often required to plug in mono. So I set up my stereo effects to sound right in mono, and then just better in stereo
 
You can switch between stereo and mono output for Out 1 in the global settings for Mode.

If the preset was set up for stereo effects that pan, like delays, then they could end up with weird phase cancelations. It's probably a good idea to have a set of stereo presets and a set of mono for recording or where you're using FRFR for room fill, vs. live with a FOH that could be mono-only.

Read Mono and stereo in the Wiki for more.
 
As a long-time FOH, I’d suggest you send whatever you think sounds the way you like it best and then trust the guy twisting the knobs to do his job. I know I usually focus on getting good definition on each source, and hard panning seldom results in same. That said, with a large console in front of me I usually dupe the stereo sources to a second set of faders so that I can set the “normal” sound (collapsed width, good definition at mix level) and the “lead” sound (wide and loud with maybe some extra 2Khz bite) and easily (lazily?) switch between the two as needed. So there.
And paying attention to what happens when your stereo feed gets summed to mono? +1,000,000…
 
Think you'd be better off with a Haas delay.

Edit: I should caveat that with you run the risk of phase issues. I'll mirror 'It depends'.
 
Thanks all.

I actually spoke to the engineer last night (I'm really not used to having a sound engineer for a gig, let alone one who seems to be very well prepared beforehand). I explained I run FX in stereo, and use an AFX3. He checked it would just be L and R XLRs, and he seemed to be absolutely fine with that.

So, I'll just keep my mild panning in the cab blocks, check it sounds OK if collapsed to mono, and leave the rest to him.
 
I personally set up 2 presets 1 stereo and one mono. Use whichever is appropriate for that particular gig. Again, that’s the beauty of Fractal. You have more control of what comes from your system and you can tailor it. Back in the “ old days”, when my band was having some pretty good success in the Jersey area, we would hire our own sound companies and had total control. The hard panned guitars with the “80’s” chorusing sounded monsterous. Huge! That doesn't mean that every effect in your chain has to have your signal bouncing back and forth from hard right to hard left. Be conservative with the panning on your delays, but let your widening effects be wide. If the FOH squeezes the panning towards center, so what.
 
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