Question about High and Low cut in the Bloc Cab

Anto

Anto

Inspired
Hi to all,

I only use V30's IR, as it's my favorite speaker.
I know the frequency range of a V30's speaker is 50 to 5000 Hz, so, when we use an IR, which is just the speaker cab's tone taken by a mic or mics combination, shouldn't we set the High and Low cuts of the Cab Bloc the same as the frequency range of the speaker we use ?
As we know the mics add lows and highs to the sound of the cab it seems to be logic to cut 50 in the Lows and 5000 in the Highs to be as close as possible to the sound of the V30 cab speaker if we use a V30's IR... Isn't it ? I'm maybe wrong, just want to know for my knowledge.

Thank you.
 
That seems logical, but I get too much thump and woofiness unless I low cut almost all presets up to at least around 80Hz. I can't hear the high cut as well, but I take that down to around 9,000. I am going to try 5,000 based on your question and see if that sounds better.
 
Anto said:
Hi to all,

I only use V30's IR, as it's my favorite speaker.
I know the frequency range of a V30's speaker is 50 to 5000 Hz, so, when we use an IR, which is just the speaker cab's tone taken by a mic or mics combination, shouldn't we set the High and Low cuts of the Cab Bloc the same as the frequency range of the speaker we use ?
As we know the mics add lows and highs to the sound of the cab it seems to be logic to cut 50 in the Lows and 5000 in the Highs to be as close as possible to the sound of the V30 cab speaker if we use a V30's IR... Isn't it ? I'm maybe wrong, just want to know for my knowledge.

Thank you.
Click to expand...

You can set up the cuts to match the frequency response specs for a speaker, but doesn't doesn't mean you should. It makes sense to make those values match the same way it makes sense to own 6 amps because you own 6 guitars: The numbers match, but they really don't matter to each other that much.

Ultimately, you should do what sounds best. The mic in the IR is going to be coloring the sound plenty in the middle of the 50-5000 region just like it does outside of it. And the speaker's natural dropoff above 5000 means you're going to be getting less content up there anyway. Another thing is that the speaker dropping off above 5000 doesn't mean it doesn't produce sound up there, it's just less sound than in it's most efficient range.

Maybe keeping a bit of that very high content helps you cut through live. Maybe to fit in on a dense mix you actually have to do high and low cuts that are even narrower. It's just another tool in the arsenal, not a game of "look up the numbers and make them match".
 
IronSean said:
You can set up the cuts to match the frequency response specs for a speaker, but doesn't doesn't mean you should. It makes sense to make those values match the same way it makes sense to own 6 amps because you own 6 guitars: The numbers match, but they really don't matter to each other that much.

Ultimately, you should do what sounds best. The mic in the IR is going to be coloring the sound plenty in the middle of the 50-5000 region just like it does outside of it. And the speaker's natural dropoff above 5000 means you're going to be getting less content up there anyway. Another thing is that the speaker dropping off above 5000 doesn't mean it doesn't produce sound up there, it's just less sound than in it's most efficient range.

Maybe keeping a bit of that very high content helps you cut through live. Maybe to fit in on a dense mix you actually have to do high and low cuts that are even narrower. It's just another tool in the arsenal, not a game of "look up the numbers and make them match".
Click to expand...

Good post! Thanks. :)

You are right about the speaker not having an hard cut off at 5khz. I like looking at the various
frequency spectrum graphs and where the biggest dips/spikes occur. What a geek!!! :)
 

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For a while now I've taken the "what works for the sound man/engineer" approach for any IR/direct signals. So I'll often roll off quite a bit, going as high as 110hz depending on the cab and vibe I'm going for, using the higher values for the slope (18 and 24db). I'm trying to keep entirely out of the bass and kick drum's way for clarity sake. Same for the High cut, often ending up in the 5-6k range again with a pretty strong slope as well. Usually cymbals/ride/high-hat are eating up all that space anyways, and I want to leave some top end for the vocals (especially with really dynamic vocalists with great technique). But that's my attempt to premix with all of the other elements coming out of FOH or recorded mix. I find it also helps when everyone is on in-ears and trying quickly get a useable mic.

When it comes to stage sound and what I personally want to hear using a real cab, I'll still roll off the low end as the frequencies can easily build up depending on the stage, though not nearly as much as my FOH signal. I tune the highs depending on where I am positioned relative to the cabinet so I'm not shredding my hearing but also cut for stage sound. When I've tried using the FOH tone approach for stage sound, I often was buried by the acoustic sound of the drums and full range of the other instruments. (That's using CLRs, Xitone, and RCF monitoring systems). Most band members expect the bigger sound onstage, so I just treat that as separate from FOH.

And of course all this is dependent on context: the music and venues you are performing in.
 
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The one variable that was missed, is the frequency response of the mic being used to capture the speaker.

A 57 for instance is about 80hz to about 20k, with a rise starting at 2.5k and spikes at 8k and 10khz.
sm57
sm57.png

A royer 121 has a frequency response of about 20hz to about 18khz with about a 2db boost from 50hz to about 80hz and a littl rise at 2k and 4k.
Royer R121
R-121freq.jpg

So... even though the speaker itself only produces what was mentioned, the mics will pickup way more than the speaker itself. so cutting only at 50 and 5k isn't truly accurate.

You also have the harmonics as as well and they have several orders of harmonics.

I cut differently based on if I am eqing for rhythm or leads in the cab block. I cut at 80 and 7k for rhytm and about 200 and 8k for leads.

James
 
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The high and low cuts in the Cab block are not brick wall cuts either. They have a slope that determines how fast the frequencies are rolled off beyond the set cutoff. The cutoff frequency is at the -3 dB on the curve. Like this:

practical-filter-005.png



1st order = -6 dB per octave
2nd order = -12 dB per octave
3rd order = -18 dB per octave
4th order = -24 dB per octave
and so on.
 
Thank you to all for your answers.
I know that Highs and Lows Cut in the cab bloc are not a hard cut off, as the frequency range of the speaker.
I generaly cut at 80 end between 800 and 10000 for home use, but at high volume on stage, I cut at 6500/7000, but I have tried 5000 and find I can set the H/M/T and Presence of the amp more like I do with my real amps, and It seems logical to cut as this, to be accurate with a real amp tone, so I wanted to have technical informations about It.
Thank you
 
Anto said:
Thank you to all for your answers.
I know that Highs and Lows Cut in the cab bloc are not a hard cut off, as the frequency range of the speaker.
I generaly cut at 80 end between 800 and 10000 for home use, but at high volume on stage, I cut at 6500/7000, but I have tried 5000 and find I can set the H/M/T and Presence of the amp more like I do with my real amps, and It seems logical to cut as this, to be accurate with a real amp tone, so I wanted to have technical informations about It.
Thank you
Click to expand...
Well, it's very likely not a hard cutoff with the frequency range of speakers either, to be fair.
 
I always try and keep in mind that once you are in a full band mix, a lot of those highs that you are hearing in the higher ranges that are slightly annoying with the guitar on it's own, can't REALLY be heard. They also give you clarity in a full band mix.

As for the lows, just cut up to 125 by default and be done with it. At volumes above 90db, your guitar should have plenty of lows. And it keeps your guitar from fighting with the bass guitar.
 
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Satch4u3 said:
I always try and keep in mind that once you are in a full band mix, a lot of those highs that you are hearing in the higher ranges that are slightly annoying with the guitar on it's own, can't REALLY be heard. They also give you clarity in a full band mix.
Click to expand...
This. It's a big reason why Rectifiers sound so amazing, but people get in front of them to noodle by themselves and go WTF?
 
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