Over EQing?

Claude M

Claude M

Inspired
Hi guys.

Can someone explain the following scenario to me coz I can't wrap my head around it.

The following scenario is from reading information and watching videos from well known (and not so well known) Fractal YouTubers.

"Nearly" everyone when setting up a preset, Low and Hi cuts the Cab block, say at 80-100HZ and 6500HZ (examples). But what I don't understand is what happens next. A lot of guys then also place a PEQ after the Cab block and the first thing they do is Type 1, Blocking at 100HZ at 12/24db. Then Type 5 Blocking at 6500HZ at 12/24 db. Then some use a Looper to sweep Type 2, 3 and 4 to cut frequencies that don't sound good.

Now I know that not everyone does this in their presets, but my question to this thread is:
If I've cut the Cab block at 100 and 6500 and then do the same cut in the PEQ block, aren't I doubling the 100 and 6500Hz cuts? Aren't I over EQing?

Thanks.
 
I can't offer any useful information here but 6500 seems like a pretty substantial hi-cut. Do you find you lose the top end by cutting that far down?


I have been using a PEQ lately but not for HP/LP, I've been using it for more surgical purposes, like getting out that low mid rumble (often somewhere between 250-350hz, often I like to cut out what I consider some resonances in the 600-800 range (just a few db with a very narrow q at one freq) and I target the “whistle” which is somewhere in the 4k range.
 
RoshRoslin said:
The cabinet block has different slopes. So having hard cutoffs in a PEQ block afterward with the blocking parameter can make the cutoff/slopes much steeper than in the cabinet block
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To build on @Claude M ‘s question - and If I’m not mistaken in believing that this is the core of his questions… - why bother doing it in the cab block at all if doing it with a PEQ is going to produce a much “cleaner/more precise/more desirable” result?
 
I think that is overequing.

To me a peq after the cab block is just to emphasis or remove certain frequencies after the cab.

But I can understand that have the block with the same cuts make everything safer.

The cuts also depends a lot on your guitar and the ir.
 
Amparkmusic said:
To build on @Claude M ‘s question - and If I’m not mistaken in believing that this is the core of his questions… - why bother doing it in the cab block at all if doing it with a PEQ is going to produce a much “cleaner/more precise/more desirable” result?
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Yes correct! Regardless of ther slope, why are we cutting twice? Maybe cut hard in the Cab block (24db) and that's it. I'm not understanding the double cut, that's all. I know I don't have to follow that procedure - I'm just asking why one would do that and is it ok?

I'm not really saying that it's more precise in the PEQ than the Cab block - the question is "why do it twice?"
 
stm113 said:
I can't offer any useful information here but 6500 seems like a pretty substantial hi-cut. Do you find you lose the top end by cutting that far down?


I have been using a PEQ lately but not for HP/LP, I've been using it for more surgical purposes, like getting out that low mid rumble (often somewhere between 250-350hz, often I like to cut out what I consider some resonances in the 600-800 range (just a few db with a very narrow q at one freq) and I target the “whistle” which is somewhere in the 4k range.
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A lot of guys start at 6500. I don't believe it's that harsh. Turn up your reference speaker loud (Fletcher Munson) and sometimes, 6500 is perfect!
 
It’s helpful to see low and high cuts as slopes that suppress frequencies under the curve not as hard limiters that chop off all frequencies outside that value. There can still be spikes that push above the curve. Open up a EQ with a frequency analyser on your DAW and adjust freq values and Q and you’ll see this occur in real time.

Personally I don’t see the need to cut the same values at the cab and PEQ but since the slopes are different people may find the suppression offered by only one as insufficient and make adjustments further in the chain. This could be particularly true if you want more reduction in the extreme ends of the freq without having to move too low/high on the cuts and start sacrificing information you want to retain.

In short, different EQs behave differently so do what works best for your ears and don’t sweat it 😉
 
Stacking filters in series basically gives you a steeper slope. For example, two first order high pass filters at 100 Hz (6 dB/octave slope) in series is the same as one second order high pass filter at 100 Hz (12 dB/octave slope).

That's actually how you can build higher order passive filters.
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I think it's important to use your ears more when deciding what sounds good for you.
That's the way we use to do it in the ol' days. I stumble onto this comment often on these threads.
What sounds good to me is often to bright or brilliant for other people. I know I'm loosing some highs in my own hearing as I get older & I tend to overcompensate for it in my mixing.
I am guilty of over-mixing things though. Sometimes I need to just start from scratch w/ rested ears on a new day.
I find myself in my studio in the late hours of the evening when I'm already getting tired. So my ears must also be fatigued by the end of the day as well. Getting old is fantastic! lol!

Cheers!
 
Speaking from the layman's side of Fractal, EQing initially is designed to get you into a ballpark area where you can hear with quality monitors or headphones what your optimum tone should sound like. Adding a PEQ is more designed for studio recording, where certain errant frequencies can cause undesirable harmonics or peaks which when filtered out generate a more pleasing tone and sound.

There are at least one or two good G66 YT videos regards this, which describe the how and why of PEQ's and their purpose. Specifically designed to increase a range of useful frequencies and cut or boost others.

Here's CC demonstrating his 16 guitar preset using a PEQ.



Also, teaching us about EQ...



The old joke is, "If you don't like it, just season it a little more." Well, that's fine. Fortunately, with FAS you can always take out what you put in. With seasoning, not so much.
 
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There’s a couple of questions here I think. Why do they do it, and, is there a purposeful reason to do it?

From what I’ve seen regarding the former, it represents exercise of a separation of concerns. One concern being strict constraint to guitaristic frequency range. The other being selective tone shaping.

If there are other effects between the cab and the peq, I’d wonder the eq effects of the intervening blocks. E.g. brightening after compression.

Other times there may be intent involved like using a high pass filter with high resonance to achieve (ironically?) a bass bump.

All in all, we’re likely analyzing deeper here than often happens and they may just be habitually over eq’ing.

Long answer; my two cents. Cheers, D
 
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I always look at EQ'ing with the general approach. Basic BMT in amp block ...sometimes I adjust the input EQ in this block to block out the low end right away at input on some models. Then the Output EQ in the amp block to further refine overall tone > Cab block low and high cuts as mentioned to strip away that excess unwanted frequency noise > the PEQ I only use as surgical tool when something sounds off either in the low mids or high end (spiky) to subtract it out like that Matthew Dale vid mentions. Though when i think about it now...i don't use my PEQ very often. This thread is a good reminder that I need to take a look at a few of my presets to see if a PEQ might add that extra polish. I also feel PEQ becomes more important when you are setting presets at louder/live volumes....and less so at bedroom levels.
 
Chewie5150 said:
...This thread is a good reminder that I need to take a look at a few of my presets to see if a PEQ might add that extra polish. I also feel PEQ becomes more important when you are setting presets at louder/live volumes....and less so at bedroom levels.
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The Live Guitar EQ Tips will be helpful regards doing 3 separate EQ tips. The one I thought was kind of a precise surgery was boosting or cutting pick attack frequencies, so you could either hear your pick more or less. Good for EVH or conversely, EJ style. Something that a sound engineer might be more familiar with than the average guitarist, but with YT, we're kept informed.
 
bleujazz3 said:
Here's an additional video for those who are feeling still a little confused about PEQ...

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Yes I've watched this video and Matthew Dale many times and in fact, it was this video that prompted my OP. If you look in the comments section of this video, the answer to my question is there 🤦‍♂️

Matthew does 'normal' cuts in the cab block for general playing (home etc) at roughly 80 and 8000HZ, but for LOUD live playing, this is where he introduces further cuts (100 and 6500HZ at 24db) to help with the Fletcher Munson curve that is introduced at that LOUD level.

So theoretically, you could have a PEQ block in your preset with the above cuts that you engage when you play live and disengage for everyday playing.
 
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Since using the Dyna Cabs I've tried to get back to basics, where a steep 80 Hz low cut and soft ~8k high cut is all I need. A PEQ for me only serves as a solo level boost with a mid/hi-mid bump. I would feel that anything else is over EQ'ing on the FM9 itself.

That said, I'm so happy with my sounds these days that I'm not listening for that notch I need to cut out. I'm just playing and having a great time, whether there are tone warts or not. The audience last night loved it too!

If I were spending more time in my home studio recording purpose-built tones for specific songs, I might get surgical. But for live, the sound I'm hearing in my ears is just about the same as at practice, and it feels good. At a gig, the sound guy or gal can do what they need to do and I'll let them bear the burden of over EQ'ing for FOH
 
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