On paying for users' presets

I'm sure that if Steve Vai and John Petrucci etc. shared their patches people would pay for them. It's all about who is making the patches. If it's some "neverheard tweakaholic" I'm not sure it'll make a lot of money.

EDIT: LOL we just namedropped the same two guitarists.
 
I'd be happy if I could even get a bit of constructive criticism for the patches I occasionally share.
 
I would pay for effects packages. Meaning, I would enjoy and get some use out of various famous pedals, rack effects, plugins, and just plain crazy effects. Hopefully, the price would be reasonable and manageable. Though, I will say now, if I am paying patches, there should be a period of support from the seller, and a pdf file of how to tweak the patches. (ie what parameters in the axe correlate to the modeled effects parameters)
 
You do give a lot to the community, Scott, and I appreciate it. I've learned a lot about this box from you.

On the other hand, I can imagine (and have considered) approaching you, matman, Jay, Java, Don, Simeon, etc. for hire to build a particular effect or preset. You folks have invested much work in your musical careers, and should be compensated for expertise.

I see it like music lessons. If you want to share a lick with me, that's cool and appreciated. But if I want to take that further and get personal attention, I shouldn't expect to get that attention for free. Wonderful if it happens, but not expected. It bothers me to see someone expert on the forum put out an idea, and then immediately get jumped on to provide a preset for free (e.g. Matt's Strymon emulation), for something that's obviously time-consuming. I like the way that Simeon approaches it - there's the summit, and you'll have to climb it yourself, but I'll give you a push now and then if needed.

This is a little off-track from the pay-for-presets notion, but relevant. I'm appreciative of all of the expertise here, and would have no problem compensating appropriately. That goes with firmware updates as well, though I know that's against's Cliff's current business model.

Scott Peterson said:
I have vehemently stood against 'selling' presets. I have always been more than willing to share anything I do because it helps other folks learn to do things on their own and explore new possibilities; just as I have and continue to learn from others doing the same thing. For free. That's how you build community; it's about helping others to find ways to keep making/performing and sharing their musical expression fun.

The 'tape drive' after the amp block and/or after the cab block was one of my ideas that I shared. For free. ;)

I cannot and will not ever 'buy' a preset. It's a collection of parameter settings. Nothing more. There's no magic to it.
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I wouldn't pay for patches just because there are so many people that give away their patches anyway. If the attitude was different maybe I would. Glad I don't have to consider it.

I would pay for detailed video/audio breakdowns of effect blocks. Something that goes over every nuance and how it relates to other parameters. I would pay for that sort of thing. Maybe not a lot but it would be worth it to me to see the workings of how the flanger controls affect sound with real world examples. Don't give me fish, teach me how to fish.
 
claudel said:
I'd be happy if I could even get a bit of constructive criticism for the patches I occasionally share.
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I have an entire folder named claudel in my fractal\presets\downloaded area. I can't check right now (I'm at work) but I think it might be entire banks too. I kept these because (a) they sounded great to me, and (b) because I could learn from them. These presets are old now, and probably don't line up perfectly with the new 10.3 f/w, but they are still very valuable to me.

So feedback = big thumbs up!!! Thank you.

I don't usually comment on the tone quality of shared presets because I don't have very good ears (which makes me a poor tweaker). I let others with good ears comment on the value of shared presets, because they know better. On my side, I just keep the ones I like. Yours are amongst the ones I like.
 
One more thing to consider: there are three major options when it comes to paying or not for shared patches.

At the two extremes, there is:
- Share and never sell
- Some advanced tweakers set up a full commercial outfit to sell their work (this is the hypothetical situation we have been discussing in this thread).

But there is a third situation, somewhere in the gray area between these two extremes:
- Some users may personally contact a given advanced tweaker, and offer some sort of compensation for one or more of their presets, or for some custom preset development.

We have previously seem some users post something along these lines: "Will pay $ to anyone who can copy this tone". Some of these dealings may have occurred, successfully or not, involving monetary compensation or not. Or some users may have PM'ed some of the advanced tweakers directly to ask similar things, with similar results, again successfully or not, involving monetary compensation or not.

I don't think anyone has any objections to this third situation.

Where there seems to be a strong split of opinions is with the full commercialization of presets. The reason some are objected to it (rather than simply not caring one way or the other) is because of all the side ramifications. Does it have any impact on users who already share their presets, freely? Does it have any negative impact on the Fractal business model? (some buyers may have chosen the Axe not just for itself but also for this forum and the sharing community that inhabits it). And is there a risk that some of the best tweakers may stop sharing their presets freely if some start commercializing theirs? We have seen something similar when Jay stopped sharing his IRs freely when several commercial vendors started selling theirs (at a great loss to everyone). Not blaming anyone here, just saying these are the issues at stake, and the reason some are strongly opposed (rather than just "don't care, but I won't buy them").
 
Lots of interesting points. I didn't realize the back story of people pestering another forum member for their patches. I understand asking for a patch occasionally if someone posts a sound clip, but to PM them would seem kind of out of line to me.

That would be like you spending all night on your algebra homework and then me asking you for a copy so that I can get the same grade because I either don't know how or don't want to take the time to learn how to do it myself. Now if I called up asked for some help understanding how to solve a certain formula than I LEARN how to do it on my own and then I'm not soley dependent on someone else to do all the work for me everytime.

And if I was the person in question I may have abliged a few times, but if it kept up I'd probably just cancel my account here and leave.
 
shasha said:
Lots of interesting points. I didn't realize the back story of people pestering another forum member for their patches. I understand asking for a patch occasionally if someone posts a sound clip, but to PM them would seem kind of out of line to me.

That would be like you spending all night on your algebra homework and then me asking you for a copy so that I can get the same grade because I either don't know how or don't want to take the time to learn how to do it myself. Now if I called up asked for some help understanding how to solve a certain formula than I LEARN how to do it on my own and then I'm not soley dependent on someone else to do all the work for me everytime.

And if I was the person in question I may have abliged a few times, but if it kept up I'd probably just cancel my account here and leave.
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Exactly.

The problems with 'designing' presets for sale is NOT that you do it, but IF you piggyback on and hijack the work of others to do it, then I have nothing but disgust for the person doing that. The reason Jay doesn't share his IR's anymore is that someone was either going to or had attempted to repackage and sell it for a profit commercially. Jay shared them in the community spirit (and as an aside, for all the flack Jay takes for his perceived posting style, he's never once tried to profit from or jack anyone to make a buck with his experience and knowledge).

I've had more than one person almost stalk me asking for presets; which has always seemed silly to me. I don't share but a small portion of them now because of such behavior AND the fact that my presets are made with a very specific and unique paradigm - direct to FOH via FRFR.

I also change up what I do personally, so any shared preset from me is a snapshot in time; not some definitive magic 'PRESET'.

I personally approach forums as communities and treat them as such. To me you are either building or helping to build community, or you are trying to use it in some negative manner just to take and not give back. I'm old school in that my approach is the 'leave it better than you found it' sort of - perhaps - idealistic approach.

I learn too much, I get creative ideas from too many folks, I have too much owed to others that shared of their expertise and knowledge to even begin pretending that what I do with the Axe-FX is 'mine'. I have to credit most of my effects blocks to other folks - I tweaked them, but the basic parameter sets come from others with far more to share than I could pretend to ever know.

I do take affront to folks that try to 'sell' things such as a collection of parameter settings for profit. It does bother me personally and my philosophy towards forums. If and only if because the folks that try to 'sell' those presets will of COURSE try to use the Forum to do so. That's where the rub comes.

AlbertA did his work for free on his IR converter app. Lars did the original editor for free. Countless others have shared so MUCH over the years, and continue to do so. Armin tried to market and sell an app that borked some Axe-FX's (though it did work for a few firmwares for others) by selling his app here. That never sat well with anyone that was there at the time.

Just some thoughts on the whole concept. You are free to disagree with me, I just felt I should explain my opinion in more depth and with a bit more clarity and context.
 
I would never pay for a preset, no matter what. For one they do not always translate very well from set-up to set-up but mainly it's a principle thing.

If somebody wants to buy preset, good luck to them, likewise if somebody prepared to sell presets and SUPPORT them.


Not for me though! I truly appreciate all contributions on this board though, it is what makes this community and product stand out from all others.
 
^ Excellent post Scott!

I have used other peeps presets as a learning tool. 99% of them sound like crap when I plug it in my set up. We cant all possibly have the same gear much less EAR!

It makes no sense to me when someone would try to profit on something that is virtually unusable in the "plug IN and play" concept. AND/or profit off this community in general when support, updates and advice has been FREE all along.

However,
I could see someone getting paid as a consultant. "Hey need help tweaking this thing, I will pay for you to consult me and build my presets. TEACH ME!"
 
I think selling presets is not in line with the axe-fx community and general philosophy. I stand by axe-fx and fractal because they have the end user at heart, and not just the $$$$ like the greedy corporate 'fx' giants.
Take line 6 for eg. I will NEVER buy anything from them EVER AGAIN! The customer support is HORRIBLE, and they always try to suck some extra $$$ out of you by trying to sell you a new product to replace their crappy sounding made-in-china plastic-ey toy, and then make you pay for model packs on top of it all? And STILL your tone sounds like sh*t?!?!

Fractal have given us what we wanted when we requested it, given us free updates with LOADS of new features that they implement by USER feedback and request, are professional in their dealings and customer support, and help their customers. With a fresh new philosophy like that, I have stopped being interested in roland and line 6 and all the rest of these money hungry bastards.

The idea ALONE of selling presets makes my VERY uncomfortable, as this reminds me of line 6-type nonsense. Sorry, I won't even pay for a petrucci or vai preset. ALL presets on axe exchange are for the axe COMMUNITY, not for personal gain.

The axe community is much like the linux community - everything is built and shared with the community, and members use other members' contributions to further the community. I'll not encourage something contrary, as I think the axe has grown in development as a result of the contributions of the axe community.
 
Dpoirier said:
I have an entire folder named claudel in my fractal\presets\downloaded area. I can't check right now (I'm at work) but I think it might be entire banks too. I kept these because (a) they sounded great to me, and (b) because I could learn from them. These presets are old now, and probably don't line up perfectly with the new 10.3 f/w, but they are still very valuable to me.
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I'm in process of going through my banks and re-re-updating things. Never ending ongoing process... :lol :ugeek

I'll repost when I get through the lot, unless there's another major FW upgrade :shock and I have to start over. ;)

Dpoirier said:
So feedback = big thumbs up!!! Thank you.
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Thank you. I appreciate the feedback.

Dpoirier said:
I don't usually comment on the tone quality of shared presets because I don't have very good ears (which makes me a poor tweaker). I let others with good ears comment on the value of shared presets, because they know better. On my side, I just keep the ones I like. Yours are amongst the ones I like.
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Thanks again for the kind words.

It's just a matter of training one's hearing.

I have extreme difficulty matching previously recorded tones, except by accident.

I've been trying to train my ears to adjust to the difference in using cans vs FRFR by listening to the patches posted by Scott and some of the other live performers. I'm getting to the point where I can catch myself overcompensating for the limitations of headphones and not do it ( as much ).

Hopefully this spring I'll be able to rent some PA time and see what my little masterpieces :roll sound like at volume.

I definitely will cop to borrowing freely from the community.

Dynamic input filtering to control low end, proper use of PEQ blocking, proper use of reverb/delay,
EQ/filtering to approximate "real" amp frequency response and tone to name just a few are all concepts that I certainly never would have come up with on my own.

Thanks again to all who contribute to the knowledge base.

It helps me a lot when I get feedback from other players, even "sounds like an icepick in the ear" gets me listening more critically to the high end...
 
Problem now with this thread is it becomes about "control" whether that is a motive or not...you have two camps for and against, with there own idea's but it becomes divisive.

Someone interested in doing this is going to feel "why bother when this is the response i will get" and those willing to pay end up missing out because of how vocal those against it are.

It easy to say "i don't care, but i wont pay and i'm against it for these reasons" but all that is doing is setting up a situation where people feel if they do, they will be they have done something they might be ostracized for.
 
Scott Peterson said:
The problems with 'designing' presets for sale is NOT that you do it, but IF you piggyback on and hijack the work of others to do it, then I have nothing but disgust for the person doing that. The reason Jay doesn't share his IR's anymore is that someone was either going to or had attempted to repackage and sell it for a profit commercially.
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This point also highlights why selling a collection of parameter settings (as you put it well) is a silly business endeavor. There is no protection whatsoever for anyone's "intellectual property," if one can legitimately apply that term to a bunch of knob twiddling. There's no copy protection, the patch isn't "compiled" and it therefore easy to examine, tweak, etc.

As much as we all wish Fractal success and large sales volume, at present, this isn't a large market. People probably wouldn't pay all that much for a patch or a collection. When you consider that, the potential size of the market and the ease with which patches could be redistributed, this would be, at best, a nice hobby for someone.
 
I would even agree with a lot of this "community" talk, but it's still a bit black & white-ish to me.

Let me make a last comparison and suppose a bunch of Zappa admirers are guessing he must have a bunch of presets laying on the side that are only 90% there to him, but may be awesome for them. They really would like to have 'em and are saying "Pretty please, Dweezil! :)" Dweezil thinks about it and realizes "why not" but that he would need days of work to look for them, bring them up-to-date, etc. and if we understand that is a lot of time he would not normally lose. People would be interrupting him with "Oh, but we'd *love* to appropiately compensate you for it! But *please* make 'em available!"
Dweezil would make 'em for a pretty good price :p and IMO it would not hurt the community at all and a lot of us would be enriched by it and honored to be able to get stuff we normally would never have seen.

The main difference is that Don is not some L.A. big shot [don't mean that Dweezil is one, well "yes and no" :D].
A *big* difference with what the thread title suggests is still that Don is not proposing this himself. But at least he would be engaged making them. That in itself is reassuring.
Sure, if Don had never shared before and everyone started charging for their stuff, I wouldn't be happy either (even if they were actually right), but that's just because of the "wanting everything" disease that most have.

I still see at least two solutions:

I can't speak for Cliff, but I'd still think that if I spotted such preset wizards, I'd ask what they wanted for a pretty filled bank of presets and offer them for free to us. TC made an Artist Card for the G-Force, so it's a treat [not a TC prices] a customer is kinda expecting and he wouldn't have any work on it. OTOH, it is a solution we preferably won't like to see, because we're getting enough from Cliff already [Toto song "Never Enough" suddenly pops into my mind :D]

Don could also make a webpage with a FREE preset pack and include a PayPal link for appreciation. But it would be pretty saddening to see 500 downloads and 15 people that payed $5.00, so that's up to him.

I personally don't have a problem with him selling it, because I compare it to the Zappa example. I think it's great if you can support someone making a living with something he actually loves to do (so much that he gives plenty of quality stuff away).

I personally see more danger in people popping up selling IRs, because they also know "People want it all, we just have to churn out IRs and they will keep buying them." Unexperienced as I am in audio analysis, my gut feeling of OwnHammers was that he may have applied something extra "in Fletcher-Munson style" so we'd like his IRs at least as much. I'm not at all implying that is actually the case, but Scott's recent idea about them seems to make that possible? "If it sounds good, it sounds good", but you understand the dangers here.
 
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I'm going to weigh in here just this once, so as to make clear exactly how I see the issues involved.

The forum belongs to Fractal Audio Systems. It is provided for the benefit of owners and potential purchasers of Axe-Fx and related products sold by FAS. When I shared IRs, it was for the same purpose. Not for my benefit in any way, but for the benefit of other users. There were some ingrates, several of whom are still around, who insisted on looking this particular gift horse in the mouth, including some who felt perfectly comfortable expecting me to provide additional free IRs that were more to their liking. Knowing human nature as I do, that came as no surprise. Worse (IMO), there were and continue to be people here who are not Axe-Fx owners, but who instead are using the forum for nothing but free advertising for their products.

The notion of a "preset" or an "IR" for the Axe-Fx as legally-protected intellectual property is an extremely shaky one a number of reasons. Whatever income is to be derived from the sale of such items will necessarily be quite small, and I chose to pursue helping the community here over personal profit. Once others crossed the line - more than one of them has solicited free advice from me, BTW - I decided to let them have all the fun and make all the money. A few of my IRs are still out there, including the three that reside among the factory sims, but there will be no more new ones.

Anyone who is foolish enough to pay for presets hasn't yet figured out that "tone" not only isn't for sale, it cannot be bought for any price.
 
well said jay. I can see where vAmp was coming from with his dweezil example as well. That's understandable too.

That being said, if a person REALLY is an amazing tweaker and has a market for his presets, then by all means, start up a site and sell it. HOWEVER, that will have to be something TOTALLY external to this forum and FAS in general.

The culture here is not such, and is more on the open-source type of philosophy. Cliff does not have such things in his business model, and I respect him for it GREATLY. As a matter of fact, it's one of the things that drew me to axe-fx - the fact that it's always a work in progress that is changed by the community of users.

But if someone wants to sell their work externally and keeps blatant advertising dis-associated with FAS and this community, that's their business, and I wish them well.
 
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