IR's ???? IR guys?

Galo

Galo

Experienced
When I listen and change IR's in the axe-fx I can definitely here the sound changes of the speakers, like them and have no problem using them.
But I think the IR's need more info in them. Example: Altec 417 speakers when pushed hard the speakers changes sound specially in the high using my boogie amp and other amps I have used before. Maybe I have had 10 or 15 Altec's speakers in my life time and they were all similar, 8h and the 8c, my favorite is the 8c. Anyway, when the speaker pushes real hard I hear a little high end metalic sound that is been produced by the speaker braking up and I have not heard that in all the Altec IR's I've use. I guess is a speaker mechanical thing. I know there is a knob in the axe-fx for speaker distortion but is not even close. I still like the IR's the way they are now but I think all the IR's could be better.

Just an opinion.

IR guys what say you?
 
An IR is an instantaneous capture of the frequency spectrum at that moment in time. In order to obtain the unique characteristic you talking about only when pushing hard you'd have to create dynamic IRs. Seems like it would be very difficult to capture and implement. Not impossible, but def not something I'd expect to see to soon. It's a great idea though :) you could do your own IR with those speakers really cranked, but then that metallic thing will be there at all times rather than just when you play or push the amp hard.
 
Galo said:
When I listen and change IR's in the axe-fx I can definitely here the sound changes of the speakers, like them and have no problem using them.
But I think the IR's need more info in them. Example: Altec 417 speakers when pushed hard the speakers changes sound specially in the high using my boogie amp and other amps I have used before. Maybe I have had 10 or 15 Altec's speakers in my life time and they were all similar, 8h and the 8c, my favorite is the 8c. Anyway, when the speaker pushes real hard I hear a little high end metalic sound that is been produced by the speaker braking up and I have not heard that in all the Altec IR's I've use. I guess is a speaker mechanical thing. I know there is a knob in the axe-fx for speaker distortion but is not even close. I still like the IR's the way they are now but I think all the IR's could be better.

Just an opinion.

IR guys what say you?
Click to expand...

You may be misidentifying the source of the distortion. It could all be in the amp. How are you pushing the speaker's hard? With a guitar amp? Then most likely it's the amp response at that level.
 
That is right!!!! Someone maybe Cliff can do some kind of morphing software to change irs in real time connected to the input signal reading the the load of a pickup.
Just saying.

toolfanem said:
An IR is an instantaneous capture of the frequency spectrum at that moment in time. In order to obtain the unique characteristic you talking about only when pushing hard you'd have to create dynamic IRs. Seems like it would be very difficult to capture and implement. Not impossible, but def not something I'd expect to see to soon. It's a great idea though :) you could do your own IR with those speakers really cranked, but then that metallic thing will be there at all times rather than just when you play or push the amp hard.
Click to expand...
 
AlbertA said:
You may be misidentifying the source of the distortion. It could all be in the amp. How are you pushing the speaker's hard? With a guitar amp? Then most likely it's the amp response at that level.
Click to expand...

+1

If the speaker itself is truly distorting then it is probably either broken or will be broken as a result. Either from cone damage, surround damage, or the voice coil overheating and melting down. To use a typical guitar speaker construction as an example.
 
I think is a speaker mechanical thing because the amps doesnt produce that sound with my EV's...Also there are cabinet resonances at high volume that are added to IR's. Those mechanical thing/imperfections is what I'm talking about.

AlbertA said:
Youmay be misidentifying the source of the distortion. It could all bein the amp. How are you pushing the speaker's hard? With a guitaramp? Then most likely it's the amp response at that level.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
Galo said:
Ithink is a speaker mechanical thing because the amps doesnt produce that sound with my EV's...Also there are cabinet resonances at high volume that are added to IR's. Those mechanical thing/imperfections is what I'm talking about.

Click to expand...

You are changing the driver, which changes the impedance characteristics not to mention the frequency response, which of course changes the final result.

Unless you separately test for speaker response at the proposed levels, i.e. drive the speaker in question with a neutral source at high levels you may be wrongly attributing the combined behavior of a non-linear guitar amp + driver to only the driver itself.

The response of the cabinet as a whole will not really be included in a near-field capture. You have to capture in the far field to include that contribution.
 
Did you try the drive parameter in the cab block. That parameter is dynamic. I.e., the more output from the Amp block, the more Drive from the Cab block you get.
 
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Iunderstan exactly what you are saying and I'm aware of it...where Imcoming from is to have something/program that changes the IR's whileplaying...whether the speaker is week or not. Remember I had a tun ofthose speakers and they all sound very similar so it might be adesing issue. If I use the IR with the high powered sound it willstay there for as long as I play the IR, dont want that...even if thespeaker is like you say damage when you bring the volume down itsounds ok unless is completely blowned.[/FONT]


[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]
AlbertA said:
Youare changing the driver, which changes the impedance characteristicsnot to mention the frequency response, which of course changes thefinal result.[/FONT]
Click to expand...
AlbertA said:
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Unlessyou separately test for speaker response at the proposed levels, i.e.drive the speaker in question with a neutral source at high levelsyou may be wrongly attributing the combined behavior of a non-linearguitar amp + driver to only the driver itself.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Theresponse of the cabinet as a whole will not really be included in anear-field capture. You have to capture in the far field to includethat contribution.
Click to expand...
[/FONT]
 
I'm not sure about impulse responses other than improving or changing the capturing techniques, e.g. the FAS Mix cabs and the new OH cabs.

After captured, then an IR is what it is.

But I can see there being new breakthroughs in emulating guitar and bass speaker cabinets. These may have nothing to do with impulse responses or may be in conjunction with impulse responses.
 
Galo said:
When I listen and change IR's in the axe-fx I can definitely here the sound changes of the speakers, like them and have no problem using them.
But I think the IR's need more info in them. Example: Altec 417 speakers when pushed hard the speakers changes sound specially in the high using my boogie amp and other amps I have used before...
Click to expand...
Check out James Santiago's cabs on AxeChange. He has some Altecs captured at "normal" and loud levels.
 
I started to touch on some aspects of IR's in another thread FRFR Question and Kevin from OH popped in and posted a few things that I had questions on. Maybe he will have some time to chime in on this as well. The amp sims in the Axe II seem to be at an all time accurate high leaving IR's as the next thing to really focus on. One could say that they are arguably 50% of the tone from any guitar amp.

My questions were more of the physical things that a guitar cab is capable of making , cab resonance and the physical interaction between the power amp and the speaker.

Galos question of speaker brake up would be another physical characteristic of a guitar cab that I'm guessing couldn't be captured in an IR because of the way that process is done (static).
 
Sixstring said:
My questions were more of the physical things that a guitar cab is capable of making , cab resonance...
Click to expand...
Cab resonance is captured in the IR. That resonance is more or less dominant, depending on where the capture mic is (near-field/far-field, at side or back of cab to mix in with the on-cone capture...). There's plenty of room to experiment beyond anything I've ever done. :)


Sixstring said:
...and the physical interaction between the power amp and the speaker.
Click to expand...
That's what the Amp block's EQ page is all about: speaker impedence as seen by the amp.
 
Galo said:
I use some of his (James Santiago's cabs) already...thanks
Click to expand...
Galo, how close do they come to the kind of loudness-induced effect you're looking for? If not all the way, what's missing?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom