Going into tube return / AitR

supersonic182

supersonic182

Member
I came to terms with FRFR long ago, even if begrudgingly, and now I get it and it’s all fine. Now I’m more ballsy with my EQing etc to get what I’m after. It’s a nice hill to have overcome, and now I’m taking a crack at going through the return of my tube combo again.

I always took the rule of thumb to be turn off the power amp modeling with the FX return of an amp, which makes sense. However I have always felt that with both SS and tube power amps (in my own experiments) have felt stiff to play with the power amp modeling off. My ignorant theory is suggesting to me that my current attempts with my tube power amp is it is not being pushed quite the way a traditional tube pre would, and that’s my first question, is there any truth to that? Or is my FM3 sending sound just like any pre?

What I’m getting at there is I can never get the true distortion of the amp with the power amp off, for instance, and there’s a lot of the amp’s character in that of course. Is running the full model through a tube amp an abomination to you, or does anyone do the same? Is there a better way?

I have found with the various SS and tube power amps can feel stiff and that I don’t get any squish and whatnot under my fingers, so I have been turning ON the power amp modeling, even with my tube power amp, and I like it much more. It feels finally like a complete tube amp. It feels wrong. Is it just because maybe my tube power amp is a bit flat and light on coloration? Just a sterile tube power amp? Haha.. It’s an amp that is made for modular preamps, Randall RM20, so I suppose it could be.

I recall when I had my triple recto I could definitely leave the power amp modeling off and it was like no difference, so I guess there could be something to that, and maybe I should just use the full model and stop overthinking it.

Now my last question at this moment.. when you’re setting up a preset for going into the return of an amp, or whatever… you’re using a guitar cab basically… what are the mandatory things you do for things to sound and feel right, and what pitfalls should someone look out for that is seeking a more AitR experience?
 
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I usually use the "tube pre" model as power amp when going out to the fx return of my tube amps (set up to match my amp's power section as best as possible), mainly because I play at low volume so I figure the power sections of my tube heads don't get pushed enough to generate much of their power section mojo - so they need some p.a. modelling help to avoid that stiff feeling. In that config, I set the tube pre model's SIC to "resistive load" since an authentic SIC will emerge via the real cab being connected to a real tube power section.
 
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sprint said:
I usually use the "tube pre" model as power amp when going out to the fx return of my tube amps (set up to match my amp's power section as best as possible), mainly because I play at low volume so I figure the power sections of my tube heads don't get pushed enough to generate much power tube mojo - so they need some p.a. modelling help to avoid that stiff feeling. In that config, I set the tube pre's SIC to resistive load since an authentic SIC will be automatic via real cab connected to real tube power section.
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That’s the exact kind of input I was hoping for! I’ll have to give that a try, thanks!
 
I have been playing with this a lot lately, and resistive load can make it more flat and closer, but generally I like leaving the poweramp modeling on, and leaving in a SIC I like, but then just turning down the LF and HF resonance so they are only at 9-10 oclock instead of 1-2 oclock. You still get the good stuff from them, but less overhyped.
 
supersonic182 said:
...I have always felt that with both SS and tube power amps (in my own experiments) have felt stiff to play with the power amp modeling off. My ignorant theory is suggesting to me that my current attempts with my tube power amp is it is not being pushed quite the way a traditional tube pre would, and that’s my first question, is there any truth to that?
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There’s a lot of truth to that. The sweetness of a tube power amp really comes into play when you drive it into nonlinearity. The only way to drive it that hard is to play it at or near its maximum volume. And I’ll bet you haven’t been playing it that loud. ;)
 
Rex said:
There’s a lot of truth to that. The sweetness of a tube power amp really comes into play when you drive it into nonlinearity. The only way to drive it that hard is to play it at or near its maximum volume. And I’ll bet you haven’t been playing it that loud. ;)
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That would unfortunately be a big hell-no because my gf can barely tolerate me constantly playing at what to me feels a very respectful and considerate volume that reverbates through the whole apartment 😂
 
The are definitely "best practices" for approaching any set-up, but I honestly wouldn't get hung up on them if you discover something you like. I've found that lot of parameters and tools in the FM3 are incredibly useful, even when used "incorrectly". I play exclusively with an AITR, and I've always left power amp modeling on for a number of reasons:

  • I want FOH to have the best sound possible. Since you can't assign power amp modeling to individual outputs, on she stays.
  • Thankfully, I actually prefer the sound of PA modeling going through another amp. This is often "incorrect" for many of the backlines I've used, but I like it and I feel it allows me to get huge, "larger-than-life" sounds. If I plug into a backline that isn't quite loving what I'm sending, that's what the Output 2's Global EQ is there for.
  • Most guitar amps aren't going to be operating anywhere near break-up in a live setting, and even if my tone required it, the show would sound way better if I let the FM3 handle it in software and set my backline to an acceptable stage volume. Everyone in the room will like it better, FOH can do their job, people will have more fun, possibly enjoy our set, and might even buy stuff because I didn't slap them with a face-laser.
  • Flipping through a handful of speaker impedance curves is a quick and easy way to adapt the character of my sound to a new room, without needing to mess around with multiple settings.

Side note: I definitely recommend finding your AITR sound first before choosing an IR for the direct signal. At least for me, working backwards from an IR never produced AITR sounds that were better than working in the other direction.
 
Great thread, I was going to ask about leaving the Power amp on when using the FX return.. kywabinga has answered my question and makes a great point about starting with the AITR sound before choosing an IR.. Thanks!
 
I turn the Power Amp modeling off. But I'm really cranking the tube amp. At low levels it still sounds good but doesn't have that pushed amp feel like you're talking about. My suggestion: don't use Power Amp modeling if you're pushing the tube amp but turn it on if you're not.
 
Joel.Brown333 said:
I turn the Power Amp modeling off. But I'm really cranking the tube amp. At low levels it still sounds good but doesn't have that pushed amp feel like you're talking about. My suggestion: don't use Power Amp modeling if you're pushing the tube amp but turn it on if you're not.
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+1.

You can easily drive a 10-35w tube power section into distortion at gig volumes. If a low-wattage power section is part of your setup, it would certainly be better idea to turn PA modeling off, and instruct front of house to mic the cab.
 
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