EQ curve preset that mimics regular guitar cabs for FRFR users?

[dr bonkers]

@henryrobinett Perhaps rather than high passing an IR, using an IR with less bass response or proximity effect may be your solution.

Using an IR of an 8 or 10 inch speaker may open up frequencies for the bass.

The last thing that I would suggest is high pass of an IR with a separate EQ block or global EQ.

There's enough offerings to achieve the same goal without introducing subtle phase shift issues that EQ introduces.

 

[henryrobinett]

For live, get yourself a flat response amplifier. Split off from the amp block (before the cab block) to an additional Out block, and send that to real guitar speakers in a real cab on-stage. Send the original chain (with the cab block) to Out1, and to FOH. Works for me - may work for you.

Well thanks. That's really cool. But this is about using FRFR and Axe Fx III/FM9. LOL!

 

[Brett336]

Makes sense.
Do you find yourself cutting highs or lows more often?
Roughly how much?

I cut a lot more highs that I do lows. Mostly because my patched for the band are built around the Marshall 1959 100w Plexi. I can cover country, R&B, funk and good ol' rock-n-roll and more this that amp - that goes for the real amp too!

In the context of the band I have, I generally cut the highs all the way down to 7500hz and the lows to about 90hz or so. I absolutely hate Marshall crunch and distortion through a PA tweeter. A cut at 7500hz seem to be just right for my ears.

YMMV

 

[JTI]

Get the speakers off the floor

 

[henryrobinett]

Get the speakers off the floor

Yeah, OK. But I've been comfortable with two cabs being on the floor behind me since the mid 80s. I don't think I could get used to them elevated any more. And TWO on those occasions where I do have a FOH person he takes the signal from output 2. The cabs aren't mic'ed. Whether or not there's a PA/FOH the guys in the band, especially bass player ask me to take some bass out. Even though it's MY band! LOL.

 

[giantslayer]

Yeah, OK. But I've been comfortable with two cabs being on the floor behind me since the mid 80s. I don't think I could get used to them elevated any more. And TWO on those occasions where I do have a FOH person he takes the signal from output 2. The cabs aren't mic'ed. Whether or not there's a PA/FOH the guys in the band, especially bass player ask me to take some bass out. Even though it's MY band! LOL.

You could get a pad to put on the floor underneath the amp to reduce the amount of vibration and bass. Something like this:
https://auralex.com/gramma-v2/

(Note: I don’t have experience with that product. It was just the first one I found on a search.)

 

[henryrobinett]

You could get a pad to put on the floor underneath the amp to reduce the amount of vibration and bass. Something like this:
https://auralex.com/gramma-v2/

(Note: I don’t have experience with that product. It was just the first one I found on a search.)

Cool. But because of what I said regarding FOH and taking the outputs from output 2 while the cabs take out 1 (copied to out2) I'm not sure that's addressing the actual problem.

 

[200man]

Cool. But because of what I said regarding FOH and taking the outputs from output 2 while the cabs take out 1 (copied to out2) I'm not sure that's addressing the actual problem.

Henry,
I have walked away from PA speakers with the advent of the Fender FR-12.
Your problem is similar to mine and I’m a jazz guy too.
No DSP latency and the cabs sound like a guitar cab. IMHO

 

[giantslayer]

Cool. But because of what I said regarding FOH and taking the outputs from output 2 while the cabs take out 1 (copied to out2) I'm not sure that's addressing the actual problem.

You could turn off the “copy output 1 to output 2” thing so that you can send FOH a signal without EQ, while applying whatever EQ your cab needs on output 1.

 

[warlockII]

I low cut at 100Hz and high cut between 4500 and 6500 when playing out and the soundman is almost always happy with my signal...they mention how easy it is to fit me in the mix.

 

[henryrobinett]

I low cut at 100Hz and high cut between 4500 and 6500 when playing out and the soundman is almost always happy with my signal...they mention how easy it is to fit me in the mix.

Similar to what I do.

 

[henryrobinett]

You could turn off the “copy output 1 to output 2” thing so that you can send FOH a signal without EQ, while applying whatever EQ your cab needs on output 1.

Hm. Trying to think about this. OK. But I think the FOH is getting the same problem, so when I cut the lows the FOH complains less or is happy. I think even though the amps and tone stacks mimic the originals they're modeled after, FRFR changes the game. It AND FOH, when taken directly, seem to have a wider frequency range than experienced when going trough standard guitar cabs. Obviously standard guitar cabs when mic'ed don't see this.

I think unless you play with a live band regularly, you might not see or be aware of this.

 

[giantslayer]

Cool. But because of what I said regarding FOH and taking the outputs from output 2 while the cabs take out 1 (copied to out2) I'm not sure that's addressing the actual problem.

My understanding of the “actual problem” is that too much of your lows are bleeding into the room, and not enough are reaching your ears. Let’s say for the sake of discussion that 20% are reaching you, and 80% are out in the room. If you can change that to, say, 40% reaches you and 60% goes into the room, you could have twice as much lows for yourself.

That is why so many here are bringing up the ideas of amp stands or moving the cab away from walls. Floors and walls will bring a lot of lows into the room.

I would also be thinking about ways to move your cab closer to you, and further from the bass player. If the cab is closer to you, you’ll get more volume from it and can turn it down to make everyone else happier.

 

[Dave Merrill]

Hm. Trying to think about this. OK. But I think the FOH is getting the same problem, so when I cut the lows the FOH complains less or is happy. I think even though the amps and tone stacks mimic the originals they're modeled after, FRFR changes the game. It AND FOH, when taken directly, seem to have a wider frequency range than experienced when going trough standard guitar cabs. Obviously standard guitar cabs when mic'ed don't see this.

I think unless you play with a live band regularly, you might not see or be aware of this.

You're exactly right that FOH taken direct, or a recording done the same way, definitely will have wider frequency response than a guitar cab with the same signal.

Guitar cabs cut off both lows and highs. That's why many people use Full Range Flat Response (note that wording!) speaker systems for modelers instead.

An FRFR system is also neutral, letting the modeler imitate a variety of mic'd guitar cabs by using different IRs, instead of being locked into the sound of the actual guitar cab you're playing through.

Even if you don't change IRs all the time, which arguably isn't a great move during a live show, you still have the flexibility to choose from literally thousands of IRs when you build your sound.

 

[giantslayer]

Hm. Trying to think about this. OK. But I think the FOH is getting the same problem, so when I cut the lows the FOH complains less or is happy. I think even though the amps and tone stacks mimic the originals they're modeled after, FRFR changes the game. It AND FOH, when taken directly, seem to have a wider frequency range than experienced when going trough standard guitar cabs. Obviously standard guitar cabs when mic'ed don't see this.

I think unless you play with a live band regularly, you might not see or be aware of this.

I have some experience doing FOH with real guitar amps. Boomy bass was totally a problem with those. I was always doing a high pass at the board and asking the guitar player to turn the amp down lower than he wanted.

 

[PatrickWD]

At what volume have you created your presets?

It sounds to me that it could be that you just have too much low end in your presets.

Some IRs are really bass heavy and needs a lot of EQing.

Presets created at lower volumes often end up sounding too bassy at higher volume because of the fletcher munson effect. So an IR that sounds great at low volume can sound boomy at gig levels.

On some of my favourite amp and IR combinations I have done both a low cut in the cab block and cut a lot of low end in the output eq in the amp block to get the low end under control.

 

[henryrobinett]

My understanding of the “actual problem” is that too much of your lows are bleeding into the room, and not enough are reaching your ears. Let’s say for the sake of discussion that 20% are reaching you, and 80% are out in the room. If you can change that to, say, 40% reaches you and 60% goes into the room, you could have twice as much lows for yourself.

That is why so many here are bringing up the ideas of amp stands or moving the cab away from walls. Floors and walls will bring a lot of lows into the room.

I would also be thinking about ways to move your cab closer to you, and further from the bass player. If the cab is closer to you, you’ll get more volume from it and can turn it down to make everyone else happier.

No, I don't think that's it. If that was the problem why would FOH have the same issue?

 

[henryrobinett]

At what volume have you created your presets?

It sounds to me that it could be that you just have too much low end in your presets.

Some IRs are really bass heavy and needs a lot of EQing.

Presets created at lower volumes often end up sounding too bassy at higher volume because of the fletcher munson effect. So an IR that sounds great at low volume can sound boomy at gig levels.

On some of my favourite amp and IR combinations I have done both a low cut in the cab block and cut a lot of low end in the output eq in the amp block to get the low end under control.

THIS is probably closer to being it. I play and practice at lower volumes. But if I have time at sound check I still have to adjust the sound mainly by adjusting the lows.

 

[la szum]

I love how a dude as skilled and knowledgeable as Henry asks for EQ correction curves
and gets a boatlaod of replies that have ZERO to do with his request, and and then he
gets all of these suggestions about doing things a)he is not interested in, and b) he is probably
more aware of than we are.

And he handles it with style and grace, unlike what I would do.

 

[Budda]

Maybe he needs to hit up Cooper then?