EQ curve preset that mimics regular guitar cabs for FRFR users?

[henryrobinett]

This is a weird request and maybe quite stupid. Is there a setting or EQ preset that models the curve of a guitar cab? It's taken me a while to overcome the massive lows of a FRFR cab. I use the XiTone wedges, which I love. But I've had to high pass a LOT so as not to piss off the bass player and FOH. I just thought it might be helpful if it exists. I've saved some setting. Shelve anything below 100 hz. Drop a lot below 250 as well.

 

[scarbodave]

The IR of the cab block will have an EQ curve from the cab it is made with. Even with that it is pretty typical to high pass a mic'd guitar cabinet at FOH to have the guitar sit well in the mix.

With a modeler you can do this yourself (as you have) so FOH is getting a more readily usable signal but they will likely add whatever additional filtering is needed for the mix in the room.

 

[Greg Ferguson]

Is there a setting or EQ preset that models the curve of a guitar cab? It's taken me a while to overcome the massive lows of a FRFR cab. I use the XiTone wedges, which I love. But I've had to high pass a LOT so as not to piss off the bass player and FOH. I just thought it might be helpful if it exists. I've saved some setting. Shelve anything below 100 hz. Drop a lot below 250 as well.

That’s the purpose of and reason for using an IR. If you look at the IR’s frequency curve it matches that of the original cabinet, plus the capturing mic. Depending on the IR you choose you could be hearing the capturing microphone’s proximity effect, because the mic was probably pressed against the grill cloth, and selecting a different IR which had a different microphone position will help. DynaCabs contain such positions already and it’s easy to select microphone combinations and adjust and blend them to control the proximity effect.

Another problem that we rarely hear mentioned is the physical position of the FRFR cabinet in relation to the floor and walls. The lows below 200Hz can be reinforced by nearby surfaces by 6dB for each. I’d roll off lows on my EVs because they’d be on the floor, against the back wall and had the drum riser to the left. Good ol’ physics can’t be avoided so adjusting our signal going to the cabinet, or physically moving the cabinets to avoid the speaker-space problem is the solution.

The FOH sound could also be affected by surfaces too if those speakers are against walls and are in corners.

 

[strabes]

The frequency response of the particular cab, speaker, mic, mic placement, and mic preamp are captured in the impulse response. So when using the cab block the direct output of the modeler is comparable to the signal from a mic on a real guitar cab in another room, monitored through whatever speakers you're using. It's the same paradigm as any other mic'd or recorded instrument in the studio. It's a much different sound than a live cab in the room with you. So if you want that feeling, disable the cab block and run an amp model into a power amp and live guitar cab in the room with you.

With that said, I'm not familiar with the XiTone wedges, but it's possible that you're experiencing extra bass if they're placed in a corner, or they're coupling with the floor/stage. The fact that you're having to high pass (I assume you meant "high pass," not "shelf") up to 250hz tells me there's something adding bass & low mids to the guitar signal after it leaves the axefx because that is an extremely high frequency for a guitar HPF in this context.

 

[icarri]

A huge game changer (for the good or the bad depending what you are looking for) is to pole mount your wedges. The boomy bottom end is gone, in fact maybe even too much vs having them sitting on the floor.

 

[grandinq]

@Cooper Carter did a video on something like this awhile ago

 

[henryrobinett]

The frequency response of the particular cab, speaker, mic, mic placement, and mic preamp are captured in the impulse response, so when using the cab block the direct output of the modeler is comparable to the signal from a mic on a real guitar cab in another room, monitored through whatever speakers you're using, exactly the same paradigm as any other mic'd or recorded instrument in the studio. If you want to feel like you're playing through a live guitar cab in the room with you, disable the cab block and run an amp model into a power amp and live guitar cab in the room with you.

With that said, I'm not familiar with the XiTone wedges, but it's possible that you're experiencing extra bass if they're placed in a corner, or they're coupling with the floor/stage. The fact that you're having to high pass (I assume you meant "high pass," not "shelf") up to 250hz tells me there's something adding bass to the guitar signal after it leaves the axefx.

Thank you and others who answered similarly. And Merry Christmas. I always use IRs of various types. I place them after the amp block. It hadn't occured to me that this is kind of what I was referring to. But it doesn't work like that. Since I always use Cab IRs like 12 " tweed or whatever, and I'm still experiencing this issue I assum either I'm doing something wrong or the IRs alone aren't addressing my issues. I'm not going to put my wedges on a pole or elevate them. I've been useing 12 " cabs two on the floor since the mid 80s. I'm used to that orientation behind me. I used to, when I first bought my first Fractal, the Ultra, use it with two Boogie 12 " cabs and a Randall power amp. Worked well. I love the frequencies of the XiTone FRFR but it's taken me a lot more work to manage the low end, especially. And the wedges aren't i. a corner. They're on the floor anywhere from 4' to 10' behind me. Depends on the size of the venue and type of gig. Normally jazz.

I meant high pass when I said HP and shelf when I think I said shelf. Meaning to shelf the lower freq below X or HP freq above X.

 

[henryrobinett]

BTW I'm talking about live not recording or in the studio. I have a real spiffy studio. But the problems come when playing live.

 

[strabes]

Thank you and others who answered similarly. And Merry Christmas. I always use IRs of various types. I place them after the amp block. It hadn't occured to me that this is kind of what I was referring to. But it doesn't work like that. Since I always use Cab IRs like 12 " tweed or whatever, and I'm still experiencing this issue I assum either I'm doing something wrong or the IRs alone aren't addressing my issues. I'm not going to put my wedges on a pole or elevate them. I've been useing 12 " cabs two on the floor since the mid 80s. I'm used to that orientation behind me. I used to, when I first bought my first Fractal, the Ultra, use it with two Boogie 12 " cabs and a Randall power amp. Worked well. I love the frequencies of the XiTone FRFR but it's taken me a lot more work to manage the low end, especially. And the wedges aren't i. a corner. They're on the floor anywhere from 4' to 10' behind me. Depends on the size of the venue and type of gig. Normally jazz.

I meant high pass when I said HP and shelf when I think I said shelf. Meaning to shelf the lower freq below X or HP freq above X.

BTW I'm talking about live not recording or in the studio. I have a real spiffy studio. But the problems come when playing live.

When using headphones or the studio monitors in your studio, do the tones from the Fractal unit sound comparable to isolated guitar tracks from albums you like?

 

[henryrobinett]

Cooper video is cool. I kind of do that with the graphic, not the filter. I'll try that next time. I also EQ the IR. I also use room and air settings. But those are better for in the studio than live.

 

[henryrobinett]

When using headphones or the studio monitors in your studio, do the tones from the Fractal unit sound comparable to isolated guitar tracks from albums you like?

Thank you. Oh. I never compare to albums I like. I'm not trying to copy anyone else's tones. I have great monitoring. Four great studio monitors and a very well treated room. Two great phones too but I prefer not to use headphones. But once again I'm not talking about the studio. I'm talking about live gigs.

BTW I see you use HEDDs as well. My main studio monitors are HEDD type 20 II. I love them.

 

[strabes]

Thank you. Oh. I never compare to albums I like. I'm not trying to copy anyone else's tones. I have great monitoring. Four great studio monitors and a very well treated room. Two great phones too but I prefer not to use headphones. But once again I'm not talking about the studio. I'm talking about live gigs.

BTW I see you use HEDDs as well. My main studio monitors are HEDD type 20 II. I love them.

I understand your issue is in a live context, but my point in asking was to see if the tones are comparable with known good tones in a controlled environment i.e. headphones or studio monitors in a treated room. If the answer is yes, you'll know the issue is with the Xitones or their physical placement, not the tones from the axefx. If the answer is no, you'll need to adjust the tones in a controlled environment (studio or headphones) until they are up to your standards for fitting in a mix, which will make them much more likely to translate to a live environment. Basically you need to eliminate the xitones from the equation to see if they're the problem.

 

[henryrobinett]

I understand your issue is in a live context, but my point in asking was to see if the tones are comparable with known good tones in a controlled environment i.e. headphones or studio monitors in a treated room. If the answer is yes, you'll know the issue is with the Xitones or their physical placement, not the tones from the axefx. If the answer is no, you'll need to adjust the tones in a controlled environment (studio or headphones) until they are up to your standards for fitting in a mix, which will make them much more likely to translate to a live environment. Basically you need to eliminate the xitones from the equation to see if they're the problem.

I see. I think it's just a matter for EQ. I've fixed the issues with EQ. I was just whether there was a setting. I don't think it's the xitones. I have 4 of them and I have confidence in them. But they ARE FRFR. I'd assume issues would be similar with other FR cabs in live settings. Made worse maybe because as a jazz guitarist we often love the low end warmth of around 100-200 hz.

EDIT - also it's clearly from the Axe Fx III. It's not a fault or bug. I record a LOT with the III, but play live with the FM9. I have to make similar adjustments, depending the context of the music and style.

 

[randocaster]

I see. I think it's just a matter for EQ. I've fixed the issues with EQ. I was just whether there was a setting. I don't think it's the xitones. I have 4 of them and I have confidence in them. But they ARE FRFR. I'd assume issues would be similar with other FR cabs in live settings. Made worse maybe because as a jazz guitarist we often love the low end warmth of around 100-200 hz.

EDIT - also it's clearly from the Axe Fx III. It's not a fault or bug. I record a LOT with the III, but play live with the FM9. I have to make similar adjustments, depending the context of the music and style.

A couple of options from the amp block itself that I often try when things are too wooly or woofy, but I'm close to the sound I'm looking for.

In the ideal tab of the amp block, the cut switch or lowering the depth control (if>0) sometimes does the trick.

Also raising the low cut frequency in the preamp section tab can also work to thin out the tone a bit.

 

[notalemming]

Do your Xitones have the Matrix or Dayton power amps? I don't know if the Matrix has DSP settings but the Dayton does so changing the DSP setting might help.

 

[Greg Ferguson]

Since I always use Cab IRs like 12 " tweed or whatever, and I'm still experiencing this issue I assum either I'm doing something wrong or the IRs alone aren't addressing my issues.

Try setting a channel in the Cab block to use 10" and another to use 8" IRs. From looking at a bunch of different speaker's frequency response charts, both speaker sizes are a closer fit to the range of a guitar than a 12", which extends below the guitar's range. That should "naturally" reduce some of the lows.

If you like the changes, and have available scenes in the preset(s), then add 8" and 10" options so you can select whichever you need.

 

[Brett336]

I set up my #2 performance page with the dials for the Output-1 EQ and the Output-2 EQ so I can quickly cut off the bottom and the top of my signal depending upon the room we are playing. It is great for getting up and playing with the tones I like. While there are general guidelines for low and high cuts, i find that every room is different and sometimes the same room is different from time to time. I don't get hung up on the numbers and just use my ears. It is surprising how much I need to cut sometimes.

 

[Dave Merrill]

I set up my #2 performance page with the dials for the Output-1 EQ and the Output-2 EQ so I can quickly cut off the bottom and the top of my signal depending upon the room we are playing. It is great for getting up and playing with the tones I like. While there are general guidelines for low and high cuts, i find that every room is different and sometimes the same room is different from time to time. I don't get hung up on the numbers and just use my ears. It is surprising how much I need to cut sometimes.

Makes sense.
Do you find yourself cutting highs or lows more often?
Roughly how much?

 

[giantslayer]

Wedge monitors put a lot of lows and low mids into the room. To compensate, FOH needs to cut those frequencies from the mains.


What makes it a pain for FOH is they don’t have a balanced signal to turn up or down. Adjusting the volume of the guitar in the FOH changes the balance.



This can be compensated for by changing the EQ again, but it is a PITA to adjust the EQ every time you adjust the volume. In a worst case scenario, the lows/low mids from the wedge are too much for the room and they can’t get the guitar to sound right in the mix.

All that to say there isn’t an EQ that will make FOH happy. In-ear monitors are what will make most FOH happy.

One thing I would suggest trying is to have the FRFR behind you, pointing into the room so that it projects a more balanced sound to the room.

 

[skydog]

For live, get yourself a flat response amplifier. Split off from the amp block (before the cab block) to an additional Out block, and send that to real guitar speakers in a real cab on-stage. Send the original chain (with the cab block) to Out1, and to FOH. Works for me - may work for you.