Difficulty hearing myself play lead guitar....

P

Paultergeist

Inspired
Greeting all,

I am a first time poster, and -- for full disclosure -- I do not (yet) own a Fractal product (though I am very seriously thinking about getting an AX8 in the very near future). I have some questions, and I would very much appreciate any insightful replies from others who may have been down this road.

I have been a "build you own tube amp" hobbyist for some time now, and I have several *classic* tube amp clones and also a bunch a pedals. As far as actually playing out live, however, I have not gigged much with my current amps...until recently. I have now joined a cover band, and I have to be able to play a wide variety of sounds. In general, I set my current amp (a clone of a Fender Deluxe [2 x 6L6]), for very clean, as some songs require a clean signal. When I need to play a rock song, I step on a distortion pedal and/or boost pedal. Here is where the trouble starts: although my tone seems okay and my volume seems about right to my ears during the sound check, in the context of the band playing, my distorted guitar signal (especially if playing a solo) just gets lost. It is nearly as though the amp has been turned off. I cannot entirely explain this, but I suspect it is partly due to slamming too much gain into the pre-amp tube (remember that the amp was set for clean).

I have been fighting this battle for months now, and I may need to step outside of the tube-purist universe. I do feel that my *lead guitar* (distorted) tube amp tone, although fairly nice, is still rather dark, and heavy, woody.....it just does not seem to penetrate, tine-wise. What is the point of playing if I cannot be heard? I am thus exploring other options.......such as the AX8.

1. I am first wondering if others have perhaps experienced a similar problem (leads not being heard), and if so, did using the AX8 help this issue?

2. I would probably run the XLR out from the AX8 to the PA mains, but I would still want an amp to serve as a monitor in order to hear myself well. Can I easily take an output from the AX8 and run it into a tube amp front end (such as the Fender clone) while also running an XLR to the PA? Is that reasonable?

3. I am very concerned about the complexity of programming. Does the AX8 have a "quick start" set of models or something to the effect? I am wondering if I can start using it right away with a few choice sound models, or does one have to really master the learning curve to use it effectively?

This is a long post, so I'll stop there for now. Thanks for any assistance.

Paul
 
and a simple volume increase. most people program a 3-4db hike in volume for their lead patches over their rhythm patches. stepping on a boost/drive pedal placed in front of the amp will increase gain, but it won't increase volume if the amp is already saturated. some people get round this by placing a clean boost pedal in the fx loop of the amp. this will increase volume at it sits post pre-amp.
 
Welcome to the forum!

In response to your questions:
1) I actually had this problem with my real tube amp. My Axe FX resolved this by allowing me to very easily add a 3db boost after my Amp block (so that it would act as a volume boost, not gain boost). Having said that, my tone cuts through so well now that I don't ever boost anymore, I find I fit perfectly well into the frequency spectrum of the rest of the band (much better than my tube amp did).

2) Best to get some sort of powered wedge as a monitor, but if you can't then you can probably get away with plugging Output 2 into the FX Return loop of your amp. Do not run the AX8 directly into the preamp of your actual amp, this is going to sound very bad. Even using the FX Return loop of your actual amp won't sound ideal because you will be driving the Power Amp modelling of the Fractal into the Power Amp of your tube amp, but it will give you some sort of monitor (I would not recommend this as your main sound, it should only be for your own monitor). The FOH sound will of course be your best main tone in this case.

3) There is hardly a learning curve involved, you simply add an amp block with a cab block for a starting tone. In most cases the defaults are very good (if not perfect), you might spend some time selecting a cab but that is down to personal preference. You can build a very complex preset if you wanted to, and you can build a very simple preset (which in most cases is what you need) if you want to. Nowadays you only end up adjusting the BMT controls to your own liking.

Also, things like too much reverb will cause your sound to get lost in the mix, so be careful with the effects you use for lead tones.
 
I have also found that cutting through the mix is more of a frequency thing than equipment thing. Whenever I set up my lead scenes, I throw a graphic EQ on them and when I engage my boost, I increase the mids a little and the volume by about 3-4db - seems to work pretty well.

If you are used to playing through tube amps that might not give you the option of switching channels to say a lead channel with it's own separate EQ, the AX8 lets you do that pretty easily. There is a learning curve - not as extreme as I thought it would be at all and this forum and the wiki page are GREAT sources of information to help navigate.

I also played tube amps prior to the AX8 and don't regret switching for a second. :)
 
Never had a problem being heard with a tube amp when playing leads. Less gain, more mids, 3dB boost. A graphic EQ in the effects loop was my friend for the latter two of those items.
 
It sounds like you might be overcompressing your signal. As others have said, I would cut down on the gain and add an EQ pedal for the signal boost. If you go the AX8 route you will not be disappointed. I would highly recommend getting an FRFR speaker for monitoring if you go with the AX8. That way you don't worry about different sounds from your FOH vs monitor. The learning curve is only as steep as you make it. If you want to deep dive into every amp, cab, and effect parameter, you can do it and it will take a while to master. If you want to plug and play, treat it like any other signal chain, find an amp and cab that works for you, dial in your EQ and play. There are plenty of presets floating around this forum that can get you going in no time. Your setup will be much easier, your tone much more consistent, and you will have many excellent sounding amps at your immediate disposal. Good luck with whatever route you choose.
 
I know exactly what you mean , been chasing tone 40 years, the other guitarist I jam with has a silver face twin, had it forever,same guitar ,no pedals ,old school clean player ,great freakin tone .then I get in the band ,head banging 80’s rocker .not all distorted guitar works ,maybe by your self but not in a band situation.

All good advice in other posts ,also less gain . So may people just use to much gain . Like Chis said, ax8 not a solution,you can most likely get the tone you want , now you have 260 or so amps and lot of cabs to deal with ,and there is a learning curve. I’d still get a ax8 . But what you using now ,either eq different or get another pedal.
 
All,
Thank you most kindly for the helpful replies. I have read through all of them. I have much to consider. Having enjoyed the general vibe of the tube amp world in the past, this new modeling environment is definitely a different philosophy: With a tube amp, that amp becomes a part of the tone-generating equation -- almost like a part of the instrument -- but with the modeling world (such as the AX8), any physical "amp" employed would be ideally totally clean -- such that the amp doesn't color the sound generated by the AX8, but faithfully reproduces it. Do I have that right?

Assuming I am gaining understanding here, the question for me remains: If I try out an AX8, what am I going to use to hear it through? Consider this: for smaller band practices, there is usually only a minimal PA for the vocalist, so I would still need *something* that can push air and give me a signal to be heard.....like a small amp. Currently, I typically bring a tube amp "combo" along with a moderate-sized pedal-board. My original thought was to swap the pedal-board entirely for the AX8, but still bring something with a power-amp & speaker to make sound. Again, this is assuming I am understanding the landscape here.

Here is what I own thus far:

1. Tube amps --> several, all self-built clones: Fender Deluxe [2x 6L6], Fender Champ [1 x 6V6], Marshall 18 watt [2 x EL84], Dumble Lite [2 x 6V6], Trainwreck [4 x EL84]. NONE of these amps have effects loops, so my ONLY method of using one of these amps would be to plug into the standard 1/4" guitar input. Am I correct that doing so -- by which the AX8 is fed into an instrument input of a tube amp -- is far from ideal? In other words, that would not be a good option, correct?

2. Acoustic amp: I have a small Fishman Loudbox Mini. It is supposedly 60 watts, but that might be pushing it (this amp has a single 6.5" speaker). It does have an XLR input for a microphone, so I am thinking it might accept an XLR input from the AX8. I doubt that amp would be loud enough to work with a drummer, but it might be sufficient to at least audition the AX8......maybe?

3. Cabinet: I have a decent 2 x 12" cabinet (whatever is made by THD.....I am unsure of the specific speakers in it). I mention this cabinet because I am wondering if I could get some kind of small, clean, solid-state power amp that would play nice with the AX8, and thus allow me to use this 2 x 12 cabinet in a more traditional "guitar amp" configuration?

I am just trying to conceptualize the use of the AX8 in the context of my current playing circumstances. This is a significant amount of money for me, but if I audition one of these AX8 units, I want to do so under circumstances that really allow me to gain a sense of how it sounds and what it can do.

I welcome any corrections or clarifications to my current understanding, and I would be glad to hear of suggestions as to how to proceed on a bit of a budget. Once again, thank you all.
 
Paultergeist said:
All,
Thank you most kindly for the helpful replies. I have read through all of them. I have much to consider. Having enjoyed the general vibe of the tube amp world in the past, this new modeling environment is definitely a different philosophy: With a tube amp, that amp becomes a part of the tone-generating equation -- almost like a part of the instrument -- but with the modeling world (such as the AX8), any physical "amp" employed would be ideally totally clean -- such that the amp doesn't color the sound generated by the AX8, but faithfully reproduces it. Do I have that right?

Assuming I am gaining understanding here, the question for me remains: If I try out an AX8, what am I going to use to hear it through? Consider this: for smaller band practices, there is usually only a minimal PA for the vocalist, so I would still need *something* that can push air and give me a signal to be heard.....like a small amp. Currently, I typically bring a tube amp "combo" along with a moderate-sized pedal-board. My original thought was to swap the pedal-board entirely for the AX8, but still bring something with a power-amp & speaker to make sound. Again, this is assuming I am understanding the landscape here.

Here is what I own thus far:

1. Tube amps --> several, all self-built clones: Fender Deluxe [2x 6L6], Fender Champ [1 x 6V6], Marshall 18 watt [2 x EL84], Dumble Lite [2 x 6V6], Trainwreck [4 x EL84]. NONE of these amps have effects loops, so my ONLY method of using one of these amps would be to plug into the standard 1/4" guitar input. Am I correct that doing so -- by which the AX8 is fed into an instrument input of a tube amp -- is far from ideal? In other words, that would not be a good option, correct?

2. Acoustic amp: I have a small Fishman Loudbox Mini. It is supposedly 60 watts, but that might be pushing it (this amp has a single 6.5" speaker). It does have an XLR input for a microphone, so I am thinking it might accept an XLR input from the AX8. I doubt that amp would be loud enough to work with a drummer, but it might be sufficient to at least audition the AX8......maybe?

3. Cabinet: I have a decent 2 x 12" cabinet (whatever is made by THD.....I am unsure of the specific speakers in it). I mention this cabinet because I am wondering if I could get some kind of small, clean, solid-state power amp that would play nice with the AX8, and thus allow me to use this 2 x 12 cabinet in a more traditional "guitar amp" configuration?

I am just trying to conceptualize the use of the AX8 in the context of my current playing circumstances. This is a significant amount of money for me, but if I audition one of these AX8 units, I want to do so under circumstances that really allow me to gain a sense of how it sounds and what it can do.

I welcome any corrections or clarifications to my current understanding, and I would be glad to hear of suggestions as to how to proceed on a bit of a budget. Once again, thank you all.
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If you simply use an AX8 as a proxy for your pedals, you probably won't see much difference. From my long ago days of using live tube amps, my process was to always let the soundman know I was checking the lead sound/level and would self attenuate for rhythm, however I always either used amps with a built in boost or a volume pedal. Best option if you want to go 100% AX8 is option 3, a clean power amp with your cab. I doubt you'll miss your amps much in this config and you'll greatly open up your options compared with a couple pedals into the front of an amp.
 
I usually do a 4-5 db boost, and I like to increase the mids a bit. I find this works for me on all my presets.
 
overdriven tones (whether rhythm or lead) will always have less apparent volume in a band setting due to them being more compressed than cleaner tones, even if they seem more even when checking them solo. I always make my overdriven sounds a little louder on their own, they sit better live that way.
 
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