Delays Sounding Too Reverbery

sprint

sprint

Axe-Master
Does anyone else struggle with delays sounding too much like reverb? If yes, what adjustments do you make?

Strange question maybe as I guess delay is reverb in some respects, but here's the detail:
  • I don't tend to like much reverb - just a tiny bit is usually good for me, or none at all.
  • I do like big delays though, to help create a more sustained sound particularly on lead tones (ie 500ms at a lowish reedback & 15-20% mix in series).
  • the trouble I have is that, on real cabs (particularly open back), and on FRLR cabs, but not so much on studio monitors, I'm losing a lot of "presence" in my delayed tones - as if I also have a big reverb turned on when I don't.
I'm not much of a delay tweaker so I think I'm just not adjusting things correctly. I've had some success in combating this by adjusting delay tone shaping to get the delayed tone more equal to the original but I still hear it. I've also tinkered with ducking.

Also not sure why I hear this so much more with real cabs - in fact, with real cabs, all the fx seem to pop more than on the 2 different pairs of studio monitors I have. With my real cabs, fx mix tends to generally need to be lower.

Anyway - feedback welcomed on how you go about dialing in a sustaining delay tone while keeping the core tone present and not having it sound like a big reverb if that makes sense.
 
If you post a clip of a delay that sounds too much like Reverb, we’ll be a lot closer to understanding what you want to accomplish, and how that affects presence.
 
Rex said:
If you post a clip of a delay that sounds too much like Reverb, we’ll be a lot closer to understanding what you want to accomplish, and how that affects presence.
Click to expand...
will try but it seems tied to real cabinet usage (I don't hear that reverberyness on studio monitors) and I don't have much gear/skill for real cab micing to produce a sample.
 
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Maybe the real cab being mono, vs the stereo monitors is causing a auditory perception of the effects seeming relatively louder. Or they actually are relatively louder? Are you summing the output to your cab? Are you using one of the few effects the have one side phased reversed?

Also, put the parallel Delay so that it goes around the Reverb (above or below) instead of through it.
 
Will Schut said:
You say you are ducking, but are you cutting lows and/or highs as well?
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not really cutting, but I've found that when I try to match the delayed sound more
precisely to the original sound I get a better result (I guess that speaks to what Chris suggests above also, so I'll use digital delay for
my further testing with this). I'll try further hi/lo cut adjustment and see how that goes - thanks.
 
Moke said:
Maybe the real cab being mono, vs the stereo monitors is causing a auditory perception of the effects seeming relatively louder. Or they actually are relatively louder? Are you summing the output to your cab? Are you using one of the few effects the have one side phased reversed?

Also, put the parallel Delay so that it goes around the Reverb (above or below) instead of through it.
Click to expand...
I'm running in stereo in all cases (studio monitors / matched real closed bk cabs / unmatched real open bk cabs / matched real FRLR cabs) - but it's a good point - it would be simpler if I pursue this nuance in mono.

Wrt reverb, I've I turned that off completely for testing in relation to this, so it's def in the way I have the delays setup for these cabs. Thanks!
 
I presume you are not looking to integrate delay sounds so deeply that they are part of the performance itself, à la David Gilmour, Brian May, Edge, et al. So let's go in a different direction.

Both delay and reverb are going to fill up "space" (silence).
In terms of time, reverb does this in a broad unfocused way.

Synchronizing delays to the beat can make them seem more integral to the original performance and less like filler.
Less feedback (or no feedback) will reduce the filling effect.
Shorter delay times will potentially reduce the filling effect, as can adjusting the tone of the echo can cause it to sit less conspicuously.
Modulation will make the echoes more washy -- a quality which could be construed as reverb-like.

For me, the above represent a move away from the style of "soaring" echoes.

Ultimately though, both delay and reverb serve a similar purpose, so you really need to address your concern head on by focusing on what you DO want to hear and then moving towards that goal through experimentation.

Personal note: delays are linear, but depending on the application you might also want to run them in front of your cab block (or even your amp!) and ahead of any post compression.
 
Will Schut said:
And this one is too obvious I know, but do you have the delay and reverb parallel instead of series?
Click to expand...
I've been turning off reverb when tweaking around this issue, but I have changed the way I've set up delays recently going from a standard straight mix approach in series with mix @ 15-20%, input gain at 100% and level at 0, to the other approach sometimes referenced here on the forum that preserves the dry level more precisely (still in series but with mix @ 50%, level @ 0, amount of reverb controlled with input gain). I route my reverb around with mix at 100%, level @ 0, Input Gain to control amount of reverb - but reverb off for this testing with bypass mode = mute. I'll try to get some sample up with preset for clarity.
 
Admin M@ said:
I presume you are not looking to integrate delay sounds so deeply that they are part of the performance itself, à la David Gilmour, Brian May, Edge, et al. So let's go in a different direction.

Both delay and reverb are going to fill up "space" (silence).
In terms of time, reverb does this in a broad unfocused way.

Synchronizing delays to the beat can make them seem more integral to the original performance and less like filler.
Less feedback (or no feedback) will reduce the filling effect.
Shorter delay times will potentially reduce the filling effect, as can adjusting the tone of the echo can cause it to sit less conspicuously.
Modulation will make the echoes more washy -- a quality which could be construed as reverb-like.

For me, the above represent a move away from the style of "soaring" echoes.

Ultimately though, both delay and reverb serve a similar purpose, so you really need to address your concern head on by focusing on what you DO want to hear and then moving towards that goal through experimentation.

Personal note: delays are linear, but depending on the application you might also want to run them in front of your cab block (or even your amp!) and ahead of any post compression.
Click to expand...

The timing aspects you mention could well be quite related as I am not a great player so timing is off - I am likely using long delays as a crutch to some extent so when I shorten delay length / feedback level / mix, I'm probably unable to play evenly enough to maximize the filling effect at those lower values, compared to other players - so I'm not getting the same full even sound with minimal delay applied. Great feedback - never really thought about this aspect before. Though I believe unaccomplished players can benefit from excellent gear and lots of sound choices, here's a case were maybe less would be better at my playing level.

Also more generally, I tend struggle with getting any given effect more forward or back within an overall sound whether its playing guitar directly for enjoyment or in the limited mixing I've attempted to do. I hear / read a lot about this but how to go about moving one aspect of an overall sound backward or forward eludes me to some extent.

The differences I'm hearing between real cab types could be just the different response of each. I know my FR cabs are flawed as they are not flat but are adequate in that with an overall eq applied they translate consistently across preset and bring out some of the varying characters - nonetheless they are not the same as my studio monitors so maybe hyping the reverbery aspects of delays. And the real guitar cabs are completely different again so...

Thanks - lots to think about here
 
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sprint said:
The timing aspects you mention could well be quite related as I am not a great player so timing is off - I am likely using long delays as a crutch to some extent so when I shorten delay length / feedback level / mix, I'm probably unable to play evenly enough to maximize the filling effect at those lower values, compared to other players - so I'm not getting the same full even sound with minimal delay applied. Great feedback - never really thought about this aspect before. Though I believe unaccomplished players can benefit from excellent gear and lots of sound choices, here's a case were maybe less would be better at my playing level.

Also more generally, I tend struggle with getting any given effect more forward or back within an overall sound whether its playing guitar directly for enjoyment or in the limited mixing I've attempted to do. I hear / read a lot about this but how to go about moving one aspect of an overall sound backward or forward eludes me to some extent.

The differences I'm hearing between real cab types could be just the different response of each. I know my FR cabs are flawed as they are not flat but are adequate in that with an overall eq applied they translate consistently across preset and bring out some of the varying characters - nonetheless they are not the same as my studio monitors so maybe hyping the reverbery aspects of delays. And the real guitar cabs are completely different again so...

Thanks - lots to think about here
Click to expand...
Are the amplifiers used with your FR cabs and guitar cabs acting in a non-linear way at all (i.e. compressing)? For that matter, your FR and real cab speakers may be compressing more than your studio monitors. Compression after a delay will definitely change how it sounds.
 
jakel said:
Are the amplifiers used with your FR cabs and guitar cabs acting in a non-linear way at all (i.e. compressing)? For that matter, your FR and real cab speakers may be compressing more than your studio monitors. Compression after a delay will definitely change how it sounds.
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don't think so - FR Cabs powered by Matrix GT1000fx at lowish room volume - loads clean headroom (all there is with Matrix - just makes louder + amp/cabs are wattage compatible). Must be the speaker response - if I take any preset dialed in on the HS8s and play thru the FR cabs, the fx, whether mods, delays, reverb ... whatever, are much more present even with volume at the same level as HS8s and I have to dial the fx mixes back. I'm close to pulling the trigger on a couple of Celestion Triple Cones for these cabs - see how they do compared to separate woofer + tweeter
 
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sprint said:
I've been turning off reverb when tweaking around this issue, but I have changed the way I've set up delays recently going from a standard straight mix approach in series with mix @ 15-20%, input gain at 100% and level at 0, to the other approach sometimes referenced here on the forum that preserves the dry level more precisely (still in series but with mix @ 50%, level @ 0, amount of reverb controlled with input gain). I route my reverb around with mix at 100%, level @ 0, Input Gain to control amount of reverb - but reverb off for this testing with bypass mode = mute. I'll try to get some sample up with preset for clarity.
Click to expand...
If you're trying to do the "serial routing sounds like parallel", you need to set Mix to 50% and Level to +3dB not 0dB...
 
sprint said:
will try but it seems tied to real cabinet usage (I don't hear that reverberyness on studio monitors) and I don't have much gear/skill for real cab micing to produce a sample.
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You don't need much skill, really. If there's reverb in the sound, it'll show up in the recording.

The thing is, cabs don't add reverb. Which makes me wonder what you're really hearing. Which is why a clip would be useful.
 
unix-guy said:
If you're trying to do the "serial routing sounds like parallel", you need to set Mix to 50% and Level to +3dB not 0dB...
Click to expand...
Yes, for reverb in series (50% mix @ 0% Input Gain @ +3db level = Dry-Thru), but I was referring to delay in series (50% mix @ 0% Input Gain @ 0 db level = Dry-Thru). Then, as input gain is increased with block active, output volume goes gradually up/down compared to dry-thru depending on block settings
 
Rex said:
You don't need much skill, really. If there's reverb in the sound, it'll show up in the recording.

The thing is, cabs don't add reverb. Which makes me wonder what you're really hearing. Which is why a clip would be useful.
Click to expand...
k, well, I'll find and dust off my 57 n see if I can record some samples.
 
what cab are you using? if it is ported you might be hearing the sound of the delays reflecting off the back of the cab and coming out the port
 
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