Dedicated power amp (like Matrix) vs. powered monitors?

nater

nater

Experienced
I'm very seriously considering making the plunge into an FRFR world. Been reading a lot of posts about the various monitors people are using, etc. and SS power amps such as the Matrix stuff.

I've heard some mentions about the quality of the power amps from Matrix, and them being designed with the guitarist in mind etc. And if they are class A, B, D, or I or whatever...

Looking at the RCF specs, they are claiming class D power amps (as well as most powered monitors that I've seen...JBL etc.).

So, the main question is, is there any real concern about the quality of the Matrix power amp vs. something like the RCF NX series' power supplies? I'm really gassing for the RCF's, but I like the philosophy of having a separate power amp that can work for any passive enclosure's I might want to try here or there.

I know only I can decide whether the powered vs. power amp/passive is going to work best for me, but just looking for input regarding the quality of the power supplies in the case of a Matrix etc. vs. the powered offerings. I'm willing to drop the $2300 on 2 RCF's, or about that on amp/passive options, but want to be sure I'm not shorting myself on the power amp side by choosing the RCF type option.
 
Hi there,
All of the Matrix amps are class AB output, powered by overspecced switchmode supplies that we create in house. The power supply in the GT1000FX and GT800FX are both rated 2500 watts.
With regards as to which solution between amps and passive cabs, or just active cabs, is going to suit you best is there any way that you could try a few different solutions, ( borrow, hire, etc ) to see which suits you best ?

Best regards
Matt
 
MatrixAmp said:
is there any way that you could try a few different solutions, ( borrow, hire, etc ) to see which suits you best ?
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I wish I did... although I find that I get more out of auditioning gear by just buying it and using it for several months (or less), then I can decide after I play in my room, rehearse, and gig with the gear.

I know that if I go Matrix/Passive or Powered RCF, I'll be happy either way. Just was hoping to get some more input on the quality of power amps between the 2. Being that the Matrix is really designed for guitar, class AB as you said, and the RCF is more of a general (although high quality, class D) design for more general monitoring.

I don't even really know what the difference between AB and D are, but I've seen a few comments about AB being "better" (for what it's worth) than D. And if I'm going to drop $2300 - $2500, just want to try to understand all the advantages/disadvantages I'm getting into.
 
I'm in the same boat as you right now. I want to make a leap toward something better/different than my current rig which is a Mosvalve MV-962 into two Marshall 4x12 cabs but don't know which option is best.

I'm thinking about getting a Matrix but don't know how it would sound thru two Marshall cabs. Also thinking about just getting KRK studio monitors so I can use the amp AND cab sims. I've even considered getting a QSC powered speaker. There are just so many choices out there.
 
If you can afford it, consider to go with both if you prefer multiple options. I have the GT1000FX and use it with a 1x12 Mesa recto cab and it sounds fantastic; others, such as a larger Marshall cabinet sound good as well. When at rehearsal and I don't want to haul a cab, I can plug from my GT1000FX in my rack (with the AXE II) to a cabinet in the rehearsal room. I also have a QSC K12 when gig conditions dictate
 
romanianreaper said:
I'm in the same boat as you right now. I want to make a leap toward something better/different than my current rig which is a Mosvalve MV-962 into two Marshall 4x12 cabs but don't know which option is best.

I'm thinking about getting a Matrix but don't know how it would sound thru two Marshall cabs. Also thinking about just getting KRK studio monitors so I can use the amp AND cab sims. I've even considered getting a QSC powered speaker. There are just so many choices out there.
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Yea, one of the reasons I'm really considering the FRFR route is when I just jam along and noodle on my KRK 6's, is that the AXE just sounds so good, and it's soooo much easier to dial in patches vs. my VHT/Scumback set up.

From what I understand, you would be very happy with the Matrix cab combo if your cabs are doing it for you. Maybe it's my cabs, and/or my VHT (which I know is a great amp), but one or both of those components seems to be limiting my AXE experience somewhat. Also I think, I'm just really interested in getting into the CAB block aspects of the AXE and I can't do that with my current set up. So far, my consensus is that if you want to really jump around from a VOX to a Fender, to a Marshall, to a Recto/Uber what have you, you need to be able to switch up those CAB blocks to really get the benefit of all the amp types. And, the drive blocks seem to work better for me FRFR as well.

My main point about this thread was more the quality of the class AB vs. the quality of class D amps. Matrix uses AB and the RCF's use D. I did some more research on some audiophile sites and funny enough (go figure) there are mixed opinions about AB vs. D. AB has better specs, and D usually has better power/weight performance. So for portability class D seems to win, but for pure listening, class AB is the choice. However there are a lot of claims that class D has improved significantly to the point where most people (and especially in live settings) can't hear the difference between AB and D.
 
I also have been trying to decide the best route for this. I would just prefer having the power amp in my rack and not have to deal with running signal cables AND power cables to the monitors. I'm pretty sure it would be a Matrix and a couple quality passives but which ones?
 
Nater, we are walking down the same road from opposite directions... I came from FRFR and now I want the option of both. I love FRFR for the same reason you listed, I love to play along with backing tracks or drums and love the Axe presets through really good FRFRs.

I want to have a 'You can't go wrong with...' thread for situations where, if you don't mind the expense, you can't go wrong with this product.

So far I have found:

If you're looking for a modeler, you can't go wrong with an Axe FX 2
If you're looking for a power amp, you can't go wrong with a Matrix GT1000FX
If you're looking for near field monitors, you can't go wrong with Adam A7Xs WITH the Adam Sub7
If you're looking for a CoAxial FRFR solution, so am I ;-)
 
Ha!! exactly. I was actually thinking about swapping my VHT for the matrix1000 just to keep the power amp/cab options. Not ready to upgrade my desk monitors yet but that will probably be next after I choose my frfr solution. The VHT is great but for use with the AXE AND passive options the matrix is more flexible.

What cabs are you playing through? Are you still satisfied when not using cab sims?
 
nater said:
Ha!! exactly. I was actually thinking about swapping my VHT for the matrix1000 just to keep the power amp/cab options. Not ready to upgrade my desk monitors yet but that will probably be next after I choose my frfr solution. The VHT is great but for use with the AXE AND passive options the matrix is more flexible.

What cabs are you playing through? Are you still satisfied when not using cab sims?
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I just got the Matrix on Monday and it's been a busy work week so I haven't gotten any real time with it yet.

I have the following cabs:

EVH 5150 III 4x12 (could not get rid of this rig, it's gold!)
Framus Dragon 4x12 loaded with V30s
Randall Lynch Box 4x12 ( again Lynch Box head and cab made the cut post AxeFX)

Looking forward to spending some time with this setup as Axe/amp/cab is totally new to me.
 
musicman77 said:
If you can afford it, consider to go with both if you prefer multiple options. I have the GT1000FX and use it with a 1x12 Mesa recto cab and it sounds fantastic; others, such as a larger Marshall cabinet sound good as well. When at rehearsal and I don't want to haul a cab, I can plug from my GT1000FX in my rack (with the AXE II) to a cabinet in the rehearsal room. I also have a QSC K12 when gig conditions dictate
Click to expand...

So how big of a difference is there between your GT1000FX/cab setup and going into a QSC K12? Would I be blown away by the tones coming out of a K12 if I'm currently playing thru a Mosvalve power amp and Marshall cabs?
 
Depends. I much prefer the tones from my Matrix/cab than the K12 I tried.

Class A/B v D. the gap is closing but GENERALLY speaking class A/B is better for critical audio - class D is better for high pwer applications. Thats mainy due to the weight/heat issues with a of high pwer class A/B amps v Class D from what I understand.

Its also important to remember its not just the class that matters, its the amplification device itself. Mosfets are the best option from an audio quality perspective in SS amps. you CAN get class A/B amps that dont use MosFets. Cliff has stated any decent Mosfet class A/B amp is the best option for a SS amp - and the Matrix is such an amp.

Now - the amp in the RCF is a quality module as well -and is designed for a different purpose. It give great results BUT i wouldn't use that module with a passive speaker. So if you want an amp/speaker (be it guitar cab or passive FR) then Id go Matrix + whatever. IF I wanted a powered monitor - the RCF is currently the best option (at that price or below at least), however the active Matrix wedges are near. That will mate a similarly high quality co-axial speaker with their Mosfet Class A/B amp (and be of similar price - possibly a touch higher in the states). Choosing between that and the prooven RCF wedge is going to be a closer/harder choice than amp/cab or single active solution - which is more based on personal preference.

Ultimately - to answer the initial Q, a quality amp is a quality amp regardless of class. If I had to make a choice, Id say the Matrix power amp is slightly higher quality than the RFC module - based price. Think this way - the Matrix is built in house, and sold direct which keeps prices low v comparative products (even though you may find the price high on a personal level). The RCF incurs other "add ons" via distributors/reseller proffit margins AND is priced for both the module, speaker and crossover while the Matrix is just for the amp - so youd need to look at "cost" prices (and of just the module v the GT amp) to really gert a direct comparrison. How important that extra "quality" might be once you get to that standard (and higher - which are available at a price) is highly debatable.
 
hyderipper said:
I also have been trying to decide the best route for this. I would just prefer having the power amp in my rack and not have to deal with running signal cables AND power cables to the monitors. I'm pretty sure it would be a Matrix and a couple quality passives but which ones?
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A lot of folks like those JBL SRX712 passive wedges.

IIRC, Fractal uses a pair of those for shows?

Richard
 
Yeah those would probably be the shizizle. A little pricey for me though. I would like to buy a new guitar soon :roll There's also the EV-ZX3 that are about the same price. I better start watering the money tree...
 
nater said:
I wish I did... although I find that I get more out of auditioning gear by just buying it and using it for several months (or less), then I can decide after I play in my room, rehearse, and gig with the gear.

I know that if I go Matrix/Passive or Powered RCF, I'll be happy either way. Just was hoping to get some more input on the quality of power amps between the 2. Being that the Matrix is really designed for guitar, class AB as you said, and the RCF is more of a general (although high quality, class D) design for more general monitoring.

I don't even really know what the difference between AB and D are, but I've seen a few comments about AB being "better" (for what it's worth) than D. And if I'm going to drop $2300 - $2500, just want to try to understand all the advantages/disadvantages I'm getting into.
Click to expand...


Here's an article on wikipedia that discusses each class type: Electronic amplifier - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
To give you an idea Pulse Width Modulation (et al) circuits are used in controlling servo motors (either speed or position) also used in switch-mode power supplies. It's odd that Class-D are used for audio amplification because they add artifacts by their very nature, ie., it's not an analog amplifier! However, they do work very well obviated by the sound a quality design produces. I own a pair of EV ELX112P which sound awesome with my II (and at less than half the price of the RCF SMA series, I couldn't be happier ... until GAS kicks in haha).
 
The never ending questions never end ;)
Same boat-and I can't decide. I have an RCF-10 inch that is a great size and sounds great. I also have a 1000GT and a pair of EVM12Ls in 1x12 cabs-very portable. I plugged both into the kemper and went through 180 presets I just just dumped on there(because I dont have to turn cabs on/off globally or stick in a FXL in every patch). I sat between the two sets of stuff, and would turn down the volume on one side, then the other. I kept score over which one I liked better, with just little hash marks. I didnt change anything in the setups, since I really just wanted a generic modeller through whichever-type test, I didnt want to tweak the setting for either. You would think you could tailor either one way or the other.

Anyway, the settings that sucked either way put aside-and me getting bored, it was almost even after about 70 or so. To the point that my ears were just not sure what I liked. So I guess my point is-either works ;)

I kind of like not having to deal with IRs at all, and just going with the 12Ls and the matrix. But the true intent of the tone comes out better with FRFR. Tough call. I haven't made mind yet(and it's been a few years of trying assorted stuff), but I wish you luck in making yours!
 
carydad said:
The never ending questions never end ;)
Same boat-and I can't decide. I have an RCF-10 inch that is a great size and sounds great. I also have a 1000GT and a pair of EVM12Ls in 1x12 cabs-very portable. I plugged both into the kemper and went through 180 presets I just just dumped on there(because I dont have to turn cabs on/off globally or stick in a FXL in every patch). I sat between the two sets of stuff, and would turn down the volume on one side, then the other. I kept score over which one I liked better, with just little hash marks. I didnt change anything in the setups, since I really just wanted a generic modeller through whichever-type test, I didnt want to tweak the setting for either. You would think you could tailor either one way or the other.

Anyway, the settings that sucked either way put aside-and me getting bored, it was almost even after about 70 or so. To the point that my ears were just not sure what I liked. So I guess my point is-either works ;)

I kind of like not having to deal with IRs at all, and just going with the 12Ls and the matrix. But the true intent of the tone comes out better with FRFR. Tough call. I haven't made mind yet(and it's been a few years of trying assorted stuff), but I wish you luck in making yours!
Click to expand...

Thanks for chiming in. So, if I understand you, I'm not familiar with the KPA, but either way, when using your EVM12L's are you using CAB sims ON? This is one other question I haven't figured out.... I know with most all guitar speakers, CAB Sims don't work, but does that still hold true with the EV's? Are they that neutral that you can still use CAB sims?
 
I really love my GT1000FX. It sounds great, adds only 1U to my Axe rack and weighs next to nothing. But the big win here is versatility. Guitar cabs or (passive)FRFR. Works and sounds awesome either way. Yes you CAN have it all.

So I mostly use guitar cabs.. I have 3. One stays at home in my music room, the other two get dragged around for rehearsals/gigs regularly. Last Sat I gigged with my 4x12... just cause I wanted to, dammit! This Sat I have another gig, I'll probably bring the Mesa 1x12 since it's a little smaller space. But I also have a pair of older passive JBL wedges with 12" and conical horn (can't recall the model#). These sound pretty nice with cab sims on and Matrix power. They sometimes get used as vocal monitors.. at band rehearsal I no longer bother bringing the PA power amp, I just use channel B on the Matrix to power both wedges (for vocals) at the same time I'm using channel A for my guitar cab. Or if I'm lazy, I don't bother bringing the cab at all, run Axe-FX direct and power the monitors for the whole band with the Matrix.

I still own some powered speakers (EV SXa and one QSC HPR12) but I fail to see any advantage at this point.
 
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