Current state of modeling vs real amps

[AZG]

I am someone that switched over to digital probably 5 or so years ago and sold all my tube amps. I thought digital was close enough and more practical for my needs. But I sometimes felt I was missing something. Recently I added a cheap tube amp and that led me to upgrading to a Mesa Express Plus 5/25 combo with a Creamback 65 and a matching 1x12 V30 closed back cab. It is the best overall sounding tube amp I have ever played. The Axe II is good enough that I usually prefer the one (Axe or Mesa) I am playing at any given time. Both are a joy to play. Glad to have both, but if I had to get rid of one it would probably be the Mesa. The Axe is more flexible.


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[John Tisdale]

The only long term issue with tube amps, is tubes.

We may never see tubes stop being produced in our lifetime, but it is an inevitability.

With digital, it seems there is currently only advancement to look forward to. Eventually, in some distant future we may see some new form of computing that revolutionizes the world, but even than, that will simply be another advancement.


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[Rotti]

The only long term issue with tube amps, is tubes.

We may never see tubes stop being produced in our lifetime, but it is an inevitability.

With digital, it seems there is currently only advancement to look forward to. Eventually, in some distant future we may see some new form of computing that revolutionizes the world, but even than, that will simply be another advancement.


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This makes me seriously ponder the future of places like TGP.

What good is your Redplate or other obscure/expensive amp when you run out of gas for the tank?
I do think it's be very cool if, once people started making that realization, neat little one-offs started to trickle into FAS HQ for modeling perpetuity.

 

[John Tisdale]

This makes me seriously ponder the future of places like TGP.

What good is your Redplate or other obscure/expensive amp when you run out of gas for the tank?
I do think it's be very cool if, once people started making that realization, neat little one-offs started to trickle into FAS HQ for modeling perpetuity.

Honestly, I don't think it's something we will have to deal with in our lifetime. There's actually been a boom in tube production, recently.

However, as new generations are born into a even more, and more accurate digital world, the tube amp will eventually fall by the wayside, and tube production will dissipate along with it.

Before that happens, though, I think we will have to come to a point where we can scan a physical tube amp like the Kemper, but get the deeper editing of an Axe-FX model. At which point, the problem will be solved. We could archive every tube amp still functioning at that point.


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[John Tisdale]

This makes me seriously ponder the future of places like TGP.

What good is your Redplate or other obscure/expensive amp when you run out of gas for the tank?
I do think it's be very cool if, once people started making that realization, neat little one-offs started to trickle into FAS HQ for modeling perpetuity.

Also, people have been predicting the demise of tubes since the 70's, and they are still here, so again, probably not gonna happen in our lifetime.


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[sarge]

Since I got my first Axe FX (ultra) it has sounded better then putting a mic on the cab of my amp I have owned.

Own a Mark V25 and that is pretty sweet too ;-)

 

[RushOvGY]

Since I got my first Axe FX (ultra) it has sounded better then putting a mic on the cab of my amp I have owned.

I only jumped on the Fractal bandwagon with the release of the XL because found myself in a pretty well paid job, but i agree man, whenever I miked up my previous setup I could not get even half the sound I can manage with just a simple patch with any stock IR lol

 

[jakbur]

So, scenario.. You have a Friedman be100 half stack, and right next to it you have a fractal set up with CLR monitors, and set to a be100 patch and setup well, put them both behind a curtain and play them back to back... How's this going to turn out?

Did that with my brothers Marshal 410H and his Fender 62 Bassman. Tweaked the Axe to copy both and he couldn't tell which was which. Then I tweaked the Axe to sound alike but better than both!

 

[Clockwork Creep]

Asking this here will give such results: People will claim that modelling is as good or better than real amps.
Asking this somewhere on a tube amp forum: People will claim that modelling is still nowhere near real amps.

So there ya go...

 

[Siddhartha]

I can´t tell If someone is playing with an amp or with the AXE FX if I don´t see it.

We may never see tubes stop being produced in our lifetime, but it is an inevitability.

Why?

 

[clarky]

it was superb back in fw5
now it is stellar

I'm mid-way thru reamping the guitars for a movie trailer for EMI with Quantum1.0
it's sounding wonderful..

I finished the guitars for the trailer
Herbert ch3, 5153Red, VH4ch3Silver, 5153Blue
and for the lil' cleanish bit.. 65Bassman
the cabs used were the 4x12 TV Mix and 4x12 AX Mix [to my ear, they still beat everything else]

it came out beautifully
this is my first recording with Quantum.. it's just wonderful

 

[John Tisdale]

I can´t tell If someone is playing with an amp or with the AXE FX if I don´t see it.



Why?

At this moment in time, tube amps are pretty much the only off the shelf device that still uses tubes. There are some people out there that build hobby computers, and such, but that is a very small market. Tube amps are also still a pretty small market. There will come a point where tube amp production does not meet the levels to keep tube production cost effective. It's already considered one of the least efficient, and highest polluting manufacturing processes in the world, and is taxed near the point of breaking in any country with any form of environmental agency, as it is. Which is why the majority of production is based in China, or Russia. The tipping point of that industry is very fragile, and as less people buy tube amps, and more people buy Line 6 PODs, and what not, it will eventually reach a point of no return. We will simply talk about it like we talk about cassette tapes and VHS.


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[John Tisdale]

I've always wanted to see (not buy, it's just something I always thought would be a cool) - single amp modelers.

Basically, Marshall puts out a box that looks like a Plexi, but inside it's actually a highly accurate Plexi Modeler, and nothing else. It would come defaulted to authentic, so it was just basic plug and play, but it would have a USB on the back to give you access to crazy deep editing. The knobs on the front could be assignable, and maybe there could be a direct out with an IR slot.

Unfortunately, I think it's something that a company like Marshall would only do in a move of desperation to draw people back from multi-effect modelers.


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[zenaxe]

I've always wanted to see (not buy, it's just something I always thought would be a cool) - single amp modelers.

Basically, Marshall puts out a box that looks like a Plexi, but inside it's actually a highly accurate Plexi Modeler, and nothing else. It would come defaulted to authentic, so it was just basic plug and play, but it would have a USB on the back to give you access to crazy deep editing. The knobs on the front could be assignable, and maybe there could be a direct out with an IR slot.

Unfortunately, I think it's something that a company like Marshall would only do in a move of desperation to draw people back from multi-effect modelers.


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There's absolutely no point in such a thing. If you have the hardware to accurately model a plexi, you also have the hardware to model a JCM800 and JTM45 (among other things) too. Hamstringing it to be a one trick pony like that is dumb, IMHO, and would have such incredibly limited appeal (if I just want plexi sounds I will buy a f*cking plexi or any one of a thousand clones and not constantly second guess some gizmo's authenticity) .

Even though it was not well loved (probably no one buys a 'Marshall' for modeling, they buy it for its legacy, tube amps) the JMD:1 was actually a really sensible amp for Marshall's cut at a modeler. IMHO.

Marshall's legacy is both their triumph and the linchpin of their failure. So it goes with all legends.

 

[Rotti]

At this moment in time, tube amps are pretty much the only off the shelf device that still uses tubes. There are some people out there that build hobby computers, and such, but that is a very small market. Tube amps are also still a pretty small market. There will come a point where tube amp production does not meet the levels to keep tube production cost effective. It's already considered one of the least efficient, and highest polluting manufacturing processes in the world, and is taxed near the point of breaking in any country with any form of environmental agency, as it is. Which is why the majority of production is based in China, or Russia. The tipping point of that industry is very fragile, and as less people buy tube amps, and more people buy Line 6 PODs, and what not, it will eventually reach a point of no return. We will simply talk about it like we talk about cassette tapes and VHS.


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I agree. At the same time, there are things like strings & picks only used by guitarists (oh yeah, and guitars themselves)... those seem to stay in business.

But there are many other factors, such as the smaller amount of guitarists using tubes as opposed to the number using strings, the frequency of tube swaps vs strings, and as you pointed out the limited production and costly methods.

Sure, we *might* not see their total obsolescence in our lifetime (maybe some of the younger cats here will), but we definitely get to read the writing on the walls.

And that's a good thing I think. Guitarists generally make a change when something (a) sounds better than their previous gear, or (b) sounds the same but is significantly more convenient than their previous gear. IMO, we now have both, along with a reasonably cost effective approach. IMO if you want to "beat" the FAS sound these days you have to go deep into boutique territory. Your off the rack 5150 isn't going to do anything special that any one of the half dozen or so 5150 models in the box can't do. It might be cheaper - and oh so much more limited - but the alternative would be spending major bucks on something exotic... and much more limited.

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[John Tisdale]

I agree. At the same time, there are things like strings & picks only used by guitarists (oh yeah, and guitars themselves)... those seem to stay in business.

Well, strings, and picks aren't just for guitarists, but even so, they are bought far more regularly.

As for guitars, even with it being a niche market, there are still far more of them sold than amps. In fact, I once read an article claimed Gibson outsold a car manufacture, per unit, in that year. I don't remember were I read that, but it was in the 90's. Probably in Guitar World. It wouldn't surprise me though, I don't think I've been in a kids room in the last twenty years that didn't have some cheap guitar from Hastings.


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[John Tisdale]

There's absolutely no point in such a thing. If you have the hardware to accurately model a plexi, you also have the hardware to model a JCM800 and JTM45 (among other things) too. Hamstringing it to be a one trick pony like that is dumb, IMHO, and would have such incredibly limited appeal (if I just want plexi sounds I will buy a f*cking plexi or any one of a thousand clones and not constantly second guess some gizmo's authenticity) .

Even though it was not well loved (probably no one buys a 'Marshall' for modeling, they buy it for its legacy, tube amps) the JMD:1 was actually a really sensible amp for Marshall's cut at a modeler. IMHO.

Marshall's legacy is both their triumph and the linchpin of their failure. So it goes with all legends.

The point is easy to see.

People would buy it.

In fact, people would line up, pay twice the price of a real Plexi, then come here just to tell us how in-authentic the Axe-FX is because there are too many models in it to truly be as accurate, besides that theirs actually looked like a real Plexi. They'd gain some sense of superiority, and justification for their purchase, then sell it in a few months because that's what Marshall cork sniffers do.

In the mean time, Marshall would bank for a few years.

Also, I was just using the Plexi as an example. If they did it, they'd need to make several one amp modelers, that looked like the actual amp they were modeling.

Also, my favorite Marshall happens to be the original 50w Plexi. The JCM800 is pretty good too, but the original 50w Plexi has always been my favorite real Marshall tube amp I've used.


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[John Tisdale]

I agree. At the same time, there are things like strings & picks only used by guitarists (oh yeah, and guitars themselves)... those seem to stay in business.

Also, some other thoughts on that...

There aren't really many price points with tubes, like there are with guitars.

You either buy new, which costs about $100 a pair, and helps the tube industry stay around just a bit, or you buy NOS which cost whatever, but doesn't send always money to the tube manufactures.

With a guitar, CEO Bob can buy a $30k Van Halen guitar, and teenager Bob can guy a $59 Hastings special with a practice amp, a starter kit.

Or like with strings, and picks. If you want strings and picks, you buy strings and picks.

With amps you can buy SS transistor , Tube/valve, digital, or some hybrid of the three.

Then there's the fact that if you get an acoustic, you don't even need an amp!


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[axel]

Honestly, I don't think it's something we will have to deal with in our lifetime. There's actually been a boom in tube production, recently.

I agree

However, as new generations are born into a even more, and more accurate digital world, the tube amp will eventually fall by the wayside, and tube production will dissipate along with it.

I disagree. I see more and more young artists coming on the scene using old Fenders, Marshalls and various boutique and obscure tube amps. They are also using older and re-issues of older instruments. These types of artists will continue to exist and perpetuate, and I don't see anything changing that in our lifetimes.

 

[John Tisdale]

I agree




I disagree. I see more and more young artists coming on the scene using old Fenders, Marshalls and various boutique and obscure tube amps. They are also using older and re-issues of older instruments. These types of artists will continue to exist and perpetuate, and I don't see anything changing that in our lifetimes.

Trust me, I know, I used to be one of those guys. Full of the ideas of tradition, and well, tubz. But I got older and wiser, and so did my back.

Also, I actually hang out with a lot of younger artists, and while it's I do see a lot of guys with the old gear, unfortunately they are almost always the same guys that are doing it because it's "ironically" out of fashion, and like all fads, it will go away. The other issue with some of those guys is that if they are serious, and not just doing it for the fad, then they want NOS tubes, which ironically doesn't help the manufactures. buying NOS tubes from some guy who found them in his garage just doesn't support the cause. You gotta buy new, but there is some magic attributed to NOS tubes.


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