CLRs and Amp In The Room tone. I think I've figured something out.

This is pants flappin deliciousness. Is there a way to split the output so that I route the filtered signal to the CLR and the factory IR to the FOH?
 
savaitti said:
Hi,

first I'd like to say hello to you all. I've been visiting here for years, but never registered, until now.

I've had my share of tube amps, both boutique and non-boutique. I've also tried to play FRFR since the early POD days, but was never quite satisfied, until now. For the last year, I have been playing with just Axe II and active CLR. I always thought that IR's were the weak link of the Axe FX, as I always wanted to get the "amp in the room" sound (remember, I've played with real amps for 25 years, and I'm just used to the sound, whether I'm playing live, at rehearsal or at home). The addition of the new "mix" IR's in the Axe FX was a turning point to me. After that I could sell my Matrix and leave my Bogner OS 2x12" open back at home and play through CLR (or P.A.).

However, I am not completely satisfied with my "speaker" sound. I mainly use the Factory 95 (2x12 Supremo mix) IR, of which I don't even know what cab it is in real life. It just reminds me of my Bogner with Celestion G12-65's. It seems to work well with clean and distorted sounds. But it is not 100% there.

What I've been thinking is this: in order to make a decent approximation of a guitar speaker is to catch multiple IR's with the same (neutral) mic, at the same distance from the center to the cone, and mix them together (without normalizing them to be of the same volume). The Red Wires IR's could be a starting point, but I'm not sure if they've been compensated for the volume. Furthermore, I don't think 4 positions are enough to really capture the inconstancies of a guitar speaker's resonance. My idea is that if a mix IR of this kind was made, the FRFR speaker would sound just like the speaker. Then of course, you could add the back of the cab etc. in the mix. What do you think?
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You might get lucky with that approach.
But it'll be a lot of work and experimentation.
Most of the currently available IR libraries include several mic positions of the same mic as well as other mics and also some room mics and back of cab mics on some of the open back cabs.
You can use Cab Lab to make your own mixes of up to 8 IRs and balance the relative levels of each IR yourself.
But in order to hear those mixes before you finalize them and save them you'll have to ul them to the Axe, usually to the Scratchpad User IR slot and try them out.
That's a lot of trial and error and will take a lot of time and most of it will be hit-or-miss guess work.
It would be great if Cab Lab could somehow magically allow you to hear your IR mixes in real time as the faders change the levels.
I think that there are convolution plugins for DAWs that allow you do load and mix several IRs at once and immediately hear the results.
But I don't think they allow you to bounce those IRs down to a single file. Would be nice if I'm wrong about that.
Then you could convert that bounced .wav to .syx for the Axe using Cab Lab or Axe-FX IR Converter.
If they don't allow you to bounce the IRs down to a single file then you have to hope that the mix percentages are obvious according to the plugin's controls.
E.g. I tried to do this once using multiple instances of the Space Designer plugin in Logic but it was too confusing.

What *I'd* like to see is for the pro engineers at OH, RW and Fractal to start making multi-mic IRs themselves with the cab-in-the-room aesthetic in mind.
I.e. I want THEM to do all the work. ;)
 
joegold said:
It would be great if Cab Lab could somehow magically allow you to hear your IR mixes in real time as the faders change the levels.
I think that there are convolution plugins for DAWs that allow you do load and mix several IRs at once and immediately hear the results.
But I don't think they allow you to bounce those IRs down to a single file. Would be nice if I'm wrong about that.
Then you could convert that bounced .wav to .syx for the Axe using Cab Lab or Axe-FX IR Converter.
Click to expand...

mixIR2 from Redwirez is a DAW convolution plug-in that allows you to mix wave IR's in serial or parallel. It mixes by percentage. You can bounce down to a single Axe-FX Standard / Ultra file but the Axe-FX2 is not supported. You can also bounce down to a wave file. Then you can use Cab-Lab to convert that to an Axe-FX2 format.

This enables a really nice work flow. Bypass the cab in your patch and record a clip in your DAW. Experiment with various IR combinations using mixIR2 and bounce the result to a wave file. Convert in Cab-Lab and upload the mix to one of your user slots.

Terry.
 
Tone Seeker said:
mixIR2 from Redwirez is a DAW convolution plug-in that allows you to mix wave IR's in serial or parallel. It mixes by percentage. You can bounce down to a single Axe-FX Standard / Ultra file but the Axe-FX2 is not supported. You can also bounce down to a wave file. Then you can use Cab-Lab to convert that to an Axe-FX2 format.

This enables a really nice work flow. Bypass the cab in your patch and record a clip in your DAW. Experiment with various IR combinations using mixIR2 and bounce the result to a wave file. Convert in Cab-Lab and upload the mix to one of your user slots.

Terry.
Click to expand...

Ah, thanks.
Didn't know about that.
I'll check it out.
Hope it works on Mac platform.
 
Oh.
$50.00
Not sure I want to spend that right now on what will essentially be gambling.
Still, sounds like a good product.
And buying an IR collection is a gamble too.
 
Sounds like you're trying to compensate with PEQ what FAS already explained with their thread on extended IR's ? I think I'll wait for this feature of FAS as my current floormonitor (flexsys FM12) naturally needs to tame bass, and I surely wouldn't want to blow up the band's sound through PA. Anyway, generally I always cut off a bit the lower part of my EQ for "not walking on the feet of our bass player" (in the framework of golden rule : less is beautiful).

Maybe FAS reserves this feature for a next FW version, must be a bloody job to recreate all the FAS IR's in an extended version..BTW, not so much news about this feature since a long time now.
 
joegold said:
And buying an IR collection is a gamble too.
Click to expand...

It's also very easy to make your own IR's that can easily be as good of quality IMO. Just need to do it a couple times to get the mic placements down and boom! I've been using my own self made IR's of my beloved Marshall 1981 JCM800 Lead Series 4x12 Angled Cab loaded with original Celestion g12-65's. I took lots of shots, but mostly use only 4 IR's of the cab with 4 different mic's from different placements in the room, so I got 16 custom IR's.
 
I've been less lucky shooting my own IRs of my EVs.
The commercially available libraries have been much better than my efforts.
But I still haven't haven't heard an EV in an open back cab IR that really does them justice IMO.
 
What *I'd* like to see is for the pro engineers at OH, RW and Fractal to start making multi-mic IRs themselves with the cab-in-the-room aesthetic in mind.
I.e. I want THEM to do all the work.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I really wouldn't mind if somebody made those kind of IR's for me..
 
OP- Im actually liking the sounds I getting with the CLR's and using the lowpass filter (on some patches) in parallel.. My ears are shot cause Ive been playing all day- but theres defiantly a difference there in a good way it seems atm...:) Im running my CLRs in back-line pointed toward me.
 
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symphx said:
I dont have cab lab yet, but I tht it just mixes cabs, how would you bake in a low pass?
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it just mixes cabs --> No, actually it mixes any impulse responses that are sufficiently short. They don't have to be cabs.

You can shoot an IR of any EQ you want - the resulting IR will be short enough so it can be used for mixing in CabLab.
In addition to the parallel path being discussed here, you can also bake in a post cab EQ using the serial mixing feature of CabLab.
 
This is a little bit like the air control in the cab block but Im not sure the air frequency goes down to sub bass levels

Regards,
 
jimfist said:
I do think there is merit in what Great Green is saying here. The low freqs he talks about will sort of "envelope" you in this "bigness" which otherwise doesn't usually exist in many (most) FR cabinets (PA cabinets). It is implied that if you want strong reproduction of 60-100hz, you will add a subwoofer. Now, for live performance on a stage with a big PA system and powerful subwoofers, adding all of that low end may not be necessary or desirable, but this is a set of technical considerations different from the sonic "emotional needs" of the performer on stage. If a 4x12 cabinet's low end drives a sound tech crazy, then reproducing the same type of low end volume from a CLR will just be more of the same...however, you can always aim your CLR's at yourself in wedge position, which you normally couldn't do with a 4x12 cabinet.

It's added gear, but unless there is a steep high pass somewhere in the signal chain, adding a powered compact subwoofer would boost the frequencies you're describing under 110hz. Though I'm a bassist, not a guitarist, I know that this addition made all the world of difference when combined with the CLR. My pair of CLRs in conjunction with a 12" powered sub (Sub ON mode engaged in the CLRs) was absolutely scary loud and clear and full of power in the low end. It would give my 8x10 SVT cab a run for its money, and makes the experience of FRFR much more palatable IMHO.
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what brand/model sub?
 
Seems worth trying this low pass filter trick...so much so that I'll bookmark this to refer to when I can finally afford to buy this set up!
 
audemia said:
what brand/model sub?
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Mackie DLM 12S, on an open box in-store sale for almost half off street retail cost. I couldn't resist.

To update my thoughts on using the sub, I have to account for the new FW13 and Ultra-Res in the equation now. I'm not sure if it's all in my head, but it seems to me that the new features/amp algorithm allow me to get more clear "oomph" out of the CLRs compared to previous firmware...however, the CLRs by themselves still ultimately lack for sub frequencies (which really shouldn't come as a surprise or be viewed as a shortcoming), if I have the need to really feel the low end and rock the foundation. I spent time with FW13 and Ultra-res last week and have never been happier with the way my pair of CLRs sounded for bass, on their own. Definitely viable for use on bass guitar, especially if your bass tone doesn't depend on the really sub-low stuff.
 
The amp in the room involves not only he speaker but the wood and the way it throws air around is very different. I don't think anything will get there.

That being said, the ultra res mix irs, for me, sound better than any amp I've played and I've lived with the best from Fender, Marshall, Mesa, Rivera and played my fair share of other boutique amps like DrZ, Fuchs, Soldano, Bogners, Evh etc etc
 
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