Best neutral power amp choices

trancegodz

trancegodz

Fractal Fanatic
FractalAudio said:
You will never get an FRFR solution to sound the same as an amp through a guitar cab. If you put your Axe-Fx through a neutral power amp and a guitar cab I bet I could fool you in a blind test.
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What is the best "neutral power amp" to achieve this? What brand and model?

How do you know if a stereo power amp is neutral or not? Wouldn't all solid state power amps be neutral (in theory at least)?

I see a lot of people using Matrix here on the forum.
I live in the USA and have never seen a Matrix brand at any of the music stores I normally shop at like Guitar Center, Sam Ash, or Sweetwater.
I'd like to be able to just walk into a local store and buy something that will work.
What else is out there that will work besides Matrix?
 
Matrix gear is sold direct only, or from tone merchants if they have stock. There a small company with low volume niche products. There also the best ss solution for the price.

The retro channel is another option, agin its direct only and costs more. Both companies offer trial periods though.

If you want off the shelf stuff, it wont be as good without spending a fortune, but you could try the carvin gear, which gets decent reviews.
 
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trancegodz said:
What is the best "neutral power amp" to achieve this? What brand and model?

How do you know if a stereo power amp is neutral or not? Wouldn't all solid state power amps be neutral (in theory at least)?

I see a lot of people using Matrix here on the forum.
I live in the USA and have never seen a Matrix brand at any of the music stores I normally shop at like Guitar Center, Sam Ash, or Sweetwater.
I'd like to be able to just walk into a local store and buy something that will work.
What else is out there that will work besides Matrix?
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Hi there,
Please let me know where you live and I shall do my best to help if you decide that you would like to try the Matrix.

My best regards
Matt
 
I own a Matrix GT800FX, and I love it. It's only 1U, and weighs about 8 lbs!

I've also heard very good things about the Carvin DCM 1540L. which is 2U and 14 lbs.

Basically you want to look for something that's MOSFET driven, and preferably Class A/B.
 
Thanks for your replies.

So would you use the power amp modeling in the Axe FX on or off with a Matrix?

From the manual it looks like you might want a s.s. power amp that is neutral and didn't sound like tube amp so you could still use the amp sims in the Fractal.
Is that what they mean by "a neutral" power amp? One that doesn't add it's own sound. Is the Matrix a neutral power amp or not, since it is supposed to sound like a tube power amp? It seems like that wouldn't be neutral.

Wouldn't using a neutral power amp that allowed you to keep the amp sims turned on sound more like your original presets?

Would something like a Crown stereo power amp be neutral?

From the manual:

MODELING VERSION Selects between different amp modeling versions. Differences may be subtle.
POWER AMP
MODELLING
(OFF/ON)
Enables or disables power amp simulation for all AMP blocks in all presets. This capability
is provided for cases when the Axe-Fx II is used with a guitar-oriented/tube power amp
that contributes significantly to tone and dynamics. Having these characteristics applied
twice to the sound—once in the Axe-Fx II and once in the real power amp—would result
in an over-processed tone. Preamp (gain, tone, etc.), Graphic EQ, and Mixer (Level,
Balance, etc.) sections of the AMP block continue to affect the sound.

Also:

Axe-Fx II with Power 3.4.3 Amp and Guitar Speakers

Global Settings: Power Amp Simulation ON or OFF (see below), Speaker Cabinet Simulation OFF
I/O Settings: Set OUT1 MODE (p.133) as required for stereo or mono.
Notes: Depending on the character of the amplifier being used, Power Amp Simulations may need to be ON or OFF
for this type configuration.

Power Amp simulations should be turned ON when using a “neutral-sounding” power amp that does not
color the tone or create a pronounced effect on the feel or dynamics. Solid State amps typically fit this bill.

Power Amp simulations turned OFF when using the RETURN of the effects loop of a head or combo amplifier,
or a more “guitar oriented” standalone power amp that adds noticeable sag/saturation/tonal color.

In either case, it is completely safe and reasonable to try both setting ways to see which you prefer.
Whenever you use the Axe-Fx II with traditional guitar speaker cabinets (whether open back or closed, small or
large, alone or in pairs) it is best to turn Speaker simulations OFF in the CONFIG page of the GLOBAL menu (p. 131).
Guitar speakers differ from full-range speakers in that they are voiced to focus on traditional electric guitar sounds:
mids tend to be prominent, highs rolled off, etc.

In any case, the settings required for this setup are not ideally suited for monitoring through the Axe-Fx II
headphone jack, as what you hear through headphones will not sound like what you will hear through the speakers.
Switching Power Amp and Speaker sims on and off, however, is a simple matter and can be done on an as-needed
basis.
 
Keep the power amp modelling ON with the Matrix, same as any other SS Power amp (possible exception being the Retro Channel). The Matrix just adds a little feel (if you will) rather than emulating a tube amp as such (wich the retro channel does - though turning the gain down makes it flatter/more neutral).

Ive had valve power amps, and SS ones and just find the Matrix give a little more "life" to the sounds if you will. Its not an EQ thing though, its more a dynamic thing - still need the PA modelling on though for best results.
 
trancegodz said:
I live in the USA and have never seen a Matrix brand at any of the music stores I normally shop at like Guitar Center, Sam Ash, or Sweetwater.
I'd like to be able to just walk into a local store and buy something that will work.
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You can't walk into any of them and buy an AxeFX either...

Like Paul said, leave power amp modeling on. Once, I turned it off by mistake instead of turning cabs off (I think it was right after 9 came out and the menu layout changed)... It took me a few songs to realize why my sound was so different :)

Only you can decide what sounds right for you in your rig... but I've had a Matrix for the last year and am quite happy with it.
 
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I use the Matrix GT1000FX and it's hard to explain what it does, it just does exactly what it's supposed to do. Extremely flat and neutral and also very powerful. I'm not too familiar with other amps on the market but got to be honest, I have no intention of getting a different poweramp. It does the job perfectly
 
cander328 said:
Matt,
Are you going to be at the 2013 NY Amp Show on June 1 - 2?
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Hi there,
I am sorry that we are not going to be able to make that show.
If you email me at (matt@matrixamplification.com) I will be happy to call you back and help you in any way I can.

I look forward to hearing from you.
My best regards
Matt
 
The Atomic 50/50 is regarded by many as the best for neutrality. It has been quoted on this forum by some heavy hitters as sounding better than the Matrix. I have one for sale as I recently obtained 2 active CLR wedges which cannot be used passively as they have an active crossover. However the combination of the passive CLR and Atomic 50/50 I have heard is an amazing combination. If I don't sell the Atomic and 2 Reactor cabs then I might just get 2 passive CLR and have an amazing quadraphonic rig!! :lol
 
trancegodz said:
How do you know if a stereo power amp is neutral or not? Wouldn't all solid state power amps be neutral (in theory at least)?
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While most SS amps destined to PA, FOH and assorted uses aim at being completely transparent, no physical device can do that. Even in the Hi-Fi realm, where transparency is mandatory, different amps will sound and feel differently. Usually, you need a good design to get a fair transparency.

Apart from critically listening (and you have to know what to listen for and how), you'll need a good set of measures. The most obvious is probably the amplitude response (but you can't always trust the manufacturer LOL), but other elements come in as well: phase rotations, velocity of response, and the way the output characteristics change when you change the load (the cab). Every amp, in fact, will sound differently when the load you apply changes. This is only one of the reasons why you hear so many different opinions about an amp's sound (the most relevant being, that we all hear differently).

It sounds complicated and a bit involute, and it probably is, at least for everyday users!
As far as us guitarists go, IMO the issue of amp quality goes down to two ways of seeing it:


  1. is it transparent enough for my needs?
  2. if it's not, do I like the way it sounds and feels?

For guitar applications, there's probably no need to go any further :)

HTH
 
Sean Ashe said:
I use the Matrix GT1000FX and it's hard to explain what it does, it just does exactly what it's supposed to do. Extremely flat and neutral and also very powerful. I'm not too familiar with other amps on the market but got to be honest, I have no intention of getting a different poweramp. It does the job perfectly
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What are you using with the matrix as a monitor or cab?
 
James Cullen said:
The Atomic 50/50 is regarded by many as the best for neutrality. It has been quoted on this forum by some heavy hitters as sounding better than the Matrix. I have one for sale as I recently obtained 2 active CLR wedges which cannot be used passively as they have an active crossover. However the combination of the passive CLR and Atomic 50/50 I have heard is an amazing combination. If I don't sell the Atomic and 2 Reactor cabs then I might just get 2 passive CLR and have an amazing quadraphonic rig!! :lol
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On that note what is your opinion of the difference between monitoring through the CLR vs using the 50/50 with say a cabinet.

I have yet to hear the axe fx sound anything but ok through a guitar cabinet except for maybe buzz saw tones. Cleans sound lifeless and the high end seems rolled off and flat. If you EQ with added highs it seems it jus sounds harsher in the high end. What's your experience?
 
maxolla said:
On that note what is your opinion of the difference between monitoring through the CLR vs using the 50/50 with say a cabinet.

I have yet to hear the axe fx sound anything but ok through a guitar cabinet except for maybe buzz saw tones. Cleans sound lifeless and the high end seems rolled off and flat. If you EQ with added highs it seems it jus sounds harsher in the high end. What's your experience?
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Not tried the 50/50 with guitar cabs. I think the advantage of FRFR is that with good IR you get a better sound through monitors and through FOH. I have used the 50/50 with Atomic Reactor FR (Old style) It sounded really good but the CLR is better.

The digital amps in the CLR are of a high spec and are perfectly coupled to the cabinet design do there are no shortcomings to the performance of the entire transducer of amp and speaker. This Class A/B thing vs Class D is rubbish. A well designed Class D amp such as in the CLR performs just as well sonically to my ears. Any research on the topic will confirm that. The Matrix is a great amp though and well matched to their monitors such as the CFR and Q12. I have never compared them with CLR but i suspect they sound great. I am just really happy with my CLR powered wedges. The sound is very transparent detailed and musical. Everything is in one package.

So the neutral power amp and speaker coupling in the CLR to answer the OP is a great choice!!!
 
James Cullen said:
This Class A/B thing vs Class D is rubbish.
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No true I feel (though probably a good enough summation for live use). Class D amps amp on or off then use filter shaping to get the original signal shape back - A/B amps amplify the complete signal that comes in without modification. Its true a well designed class D amp can sound very good - and to some ears just as good as a quality class A/B amp, and ultimately thats what counts. Its also true though that a great class A/B amp will be more musical in the nuances. Its a little (though not a lot) like comparing CDs to Vinal. Many - if not most people cant tell the difference, but its there for the discerning listener. Of course how discerning you can be at the volumes were talking is another point, which makes class D amps perfectly viable for most people in most situations.

Its also true that the better class D designs get, the closer they will come to class A/B - ultimately they will be too close for the human ear to differentiation - Im just not convinced were at that level yet for critical listening (which is not necessarily needed with the AFX due to the environment its used in not being suitable for critical listening).
 
paulmapp8306 said:
No true I feel (though probably a good enough summation for live use). Class D amps amp on or off then use filter shaping to get the original signal shape back - A/B amps amplify the complete signal that comes in without modification. Its true a well designed class D amp can sound very good - and to some ears just as good as a quality class A/B amp, and ultimately thats what counts. Its also true though that a great class A/B amp will be more musical in the nuances. Its a little (though not a lot) like comparing CDs to Vinal. Many - if not most people cant tell the difference, but its there for the discerning listener. Of course how discerning you can be at the volumes were talking is another point, which makes class D amps perfectly viable for most people in most situations.

Its also true that the better class D designs get, the closer they will come to class A/B - ultimately they will be too close for the human ear to differentiation - Im just not convinced were at that level yet for critical listening (which is not necessarily needed with the AFX due to the environment its used in not being suitable for critical listening).
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Youv'e stated the situation much more articulately and diplomatically than myself!!

I think its true to my ears that the Class D amp in the Atomic CLR is rendering a very accurate and musical sound. I have a pair of ATC 100A monitors which have a triamped Class A/B amp and the musicality and accuracy of the CLR's is very similar even though the ATC100A are 10x the cost!

For Hi Fi applications there are varying opinions about how much better Class A/B is than Digital. YMMV etc. Horses for Courses. Taste!!I think it all depends on the amp-speaker coupling as well. Tha Matrix probably does impart some warmth to the sound but I am more concerned with the Axe doing the work and the amp/speaker being neutral. As you rightly say at Rock SPL the difference is hard to hear. THe CLR does sound incredibly good "despite" or in spite of the Digital Amp which ever way you look at it. Jay Mitchell can explain this better than me but to my long trained ears I can't tell much of a difference between a modern well designed Class D amp and Class A/B and am looking to the Axe to do the work. No doubt the Matrix is an amazing amp, but I think the CLR performs to an exceptional level with its own active Class D amp.


paulmapp8306 said:
Its a little (though not a lot) like comparing CDs to Vinal. Many - if not most people cant tell the difference, but its there for the discerning listener.
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And which one survived!:mrgreen
 
Class-D has the advantage of making loss-less cross-overs and especially corrections in the time-domain between speaker-units that are not physically aligned.
And yes James, it's "Horses for Courses".
I would find it very hard to technically make a receipt of which technology to go with because it's a matter of personal preferences soundwise, do you want to use PA-wedges, normal cab's. What do you have at hand at this moment, which threads have you read, are you bed-room, small gig or venue, do you have a deacent dude at the desk. Etc. Etc.
 
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