Is there a problem with this? Sounds a lot like a tweed Bassman to me. Do you have an example of the real deal (not a reissue) handy for a direct comparison?Deltones said:For comparison purpose guys, is this what you get with your Strat if you have a Bassman block (all default values) and a 4x10 Bassman cab block (Mic - None).
Jay Mitchell said:Is there a problem with this? Sounds a lot like a tweed Bassman to me. Do you have an example of the real deal (not a reissue) handy for a direct comparison?Deltones said:For comparison purpose guys, is this what you get with your Strat if you have a Bassman block (all default values) and a 4x10 Bassman cab block (Mic - None).
dk_ace said:Deltones, Cliff has explained many times now why this is the way it is, and it makes good sense. You can't just copy settings from someones physical amp into the Axe-FX to get the same sound. It doesn't work that way.
D
mortega76 said:I'm not sure if you've read the other thread where I stated that we A/B'd the Axe-fx against a 5150 and a ENGL SE and we could not get the low to mid range "meat" or "growl" when using the standard (drive, BMH, presence and MV) without adding some massive GEQ... .
mortega76 said:Thanks for chiming in dk_ace... Without adjusting the level parameter... A master setting of 2-3 is super low with my power amp set to max (which is how I normally set it up) and with the axe-fx output level to max... It doesn't get anywhere close to loud until I crank the level to +12-13 on the level control... Then the sound (without adjusting any other setting) sounds very thin with no low to mid range growl until I crank up the master...
mortega76 said:I'm hoping that we will get to a point where we could (just as we did on just about every tube amp in the amp fest) adjust the drive, low, mid, high, master volume and presence (just opened up Axe-edit and realized that these are the only knobs under "basic") and get that tone that just makes you want to involuntarily say out loud... wow. Without having to adjust the low cut, high cut, Xformer LF/HF, or spend the amount of years that we both have on trying to achieving our ultimate tone with the Axe-fx with only the amp sim into a (known good) SS amp and through a real cab with some (known good) speakers.
I should be able to connect a great sounding amp like a 5150 to a cab... adjust the knobs and get a great tone... then I should be able to (through the same speaker cab) connect my Axe-fx/SS-amp and go to the PVH 5105 amp sim and dial in using the same (virtual) knobs (including cranking the master volume) and get a similar sounding and feeling tone... no?
But Ed, you're just one 'em "clean, low gain players," and you obviously can't hear all the subtleties of teh brootalz tonality that Mo's finely-tuned ears can. :lol:Ed DeGenaro said:I dunno....it's been years that I have messed with anything then the basic settings when doing a new patch...
But Ed, you're just one 'em "clean, low gain players," and you obviously can't hear all the subtleties of teh brootalz tonality that Mo's finely-tuned ears can. :lol:[/quote:gd0nl1qk]Jay Mitchell said:[quote="Ed DeGenaro":gd0nl1qk]I dunno....it's been years that I have messed with anything then the basic settings when doing a new patch...
While I'm sure it's not exactly what you meant to say, I can assure the 2450's are good clean amps, and if Paul was struggling to get the sound good thru the Mills cabs, it was NOT the faulty of the RMX.mortega76 said:....struggling to get his newly acquired QSC RMX 2450 to sound good in stereo into his two 400 watt Mills Acoustics cabs...
Most QSC amps (and most other brands that I'm aware of) require banana plugs to run in bridge mode. That is because you are "bridging" two separate mono amps. Left and right channels are completely separate amps.mortega76 said:..QSC RMX 2450 was running at 1500 watts @ 8ohm... on his he had to use banana clips to run in bridged mode.
This is irrelevant, makes no sense whatsoever, and does not equate output levels between the two amp in any way, shape or form. The dial on the front of the RMX is NOT a volume control!! It's an INPUT attenuator.. meaning, turning it all the way open puts the RMX channel (remember there are TWO separate amps in the box) at its most sensitive, and will need less signal level to achieve rated power output. Turn it most of the way down, and more input signal level is required to drive the amp to rated power. Period. In bridged mode, the same applies, only Chan1 attenuator is active. Chan 2 does nothing. IOW - you can get 1500w power from the amp whether the input level is set at 10 or 34. Depends on how much signal you give it. You were probably not aware of that.mortega76 said:... Forgot to mention that we had to put the RMX at around 2/3's full to equal the PV, which makes sense.
most professional PA style amps (QSC, Crown, Yamaha, etc.) will push at 2, 4 and 8 Ohms only, and 2-ohm is usually in bridge mode only.mortega76 said:P.S.S. Are there any stereo SS power amps that push at 4, 8 and 16 ohm?
There's one error here: the minimum safe impedance for an amp to drive in bridged mode is always twice the minimum for each channel. An amp that is rated for 2-ohm-per channel loads in stereo is only good to drive a 4-ohm load in bridge mode.s0c9 said:most professional PA style amps (QSC, Crown, Yamaha, etc.) will push at 2, 4 and 8 Ohms only, and 2-ohm is usually in bridge mode only.
Thanks for chiming in s0c9... What was meant was that it wasn't until we almost dime the Axe-fx's output and dimed the output of the RMX (and Peavey PV1500) did we get the low to mid range growl that we were getting with the 5150. They just sounded thin and sterile until you cranked them in stereo mode non-bridged... and on top of that they were clipping like crazy...s0c9 said:While I'm sure it's not exactly what you meant to say, I can assure the 2450's are good clean amps, and if Paul was struggling to get the sound good thru the Mills cabs, it was NOT the faulty of the RMX.mortega76 said:....struggling to get his newly acquired QSC RMX 2450 to sound good in stereo into his two 400 watt Mills Acoustics cabs...
Well... my first power amp (QSC GX5) didn't have a bridged mode so the Peavey PV1500 is my first power amp with a bridged mode option... this power amp has a separate speakon bridged mode output which I much preferred over the banana plugs on the RMX. Also, I am aware than the second input becomes inoperable in bridged mode.s0c9 said:Most QSC amps (and most other brands that I'm aware of) require banana plugs to run in bridge mode. That is because you are "bridging" two separate mono amps. Left and right channels are completely separate amps.mortega76 said:..QSC RMX 2450 was running at 1500 watts @ 8ohm... on his he had to use banana clips to run in bridged mode.
Thanks for the info on attenuation... The only reason I mentioned that we had to put the RMX at 2/3's output was because if you split the output (mathematically) into thirds 1/3 would give you 500 watts (or 2/3rds attenuation, as you put it), 2/3rd's would give you 1000 watts (or 1/3 attenuation) and of course full would give you 1500 watts (or no attenuation)... at full bridged power the RMX was waaaaaay louded than the Peavey so we set it (by ear) to level out the two power amps and it turns out it was 2/3rds (to use your words) attenuation. I am also aware that with SS power amps you can disconnect and connect at will... I just don't know how these tube guys can live with having to power their amps on/off all the time when switching speaker cables. With both power amps (in stereo mode) they were clipping with the power amps dimed and slowing raising the output on the Axe-fx... it started to clip about halfway on the Peavey and about 2/3rd's of the way on the RMX... but as I said, it didn't sound very thick in the low to mid range level at all unitl we were dimed on all three units under stereo mode.s0c9 said:This is irrelevant, makes no sense whatsoever, and does not equate output levels between the two amp in any way, shape or form. The dial on the front of the RMX is NOT a volume control!! It's an INPUT attenuator.. meaning, turning it all the way open puts the RMX channel (remember there are TWO separate amps in the box) at its most sensitive, and will need less signal level to achieve rated power output. Turn it most of the way down, and more input signal level is required to drive the amp to rated power. Period. In bridged mode, the same applies, only Chan1 attenuator is active. Chan 2 does nothing. IOW - you can get 1500w power from the amp whether the input level is set at 10 or 34. Depends on how much signal you give it. You were probably not aware of that.mortega76 said:... Forgot to mention that we had to put the RMX at around 2/3's full to equal the PV, which makes sense.
To correctly set the amp up for use with the Mills (gain stage it), you should disconnect the banana plug. i.e. - no speakers attached. This IS safe to do with an SS amp. Completely turn down the output from the AXE, then turn up the input on RMX chan 1 to 34 (full). Play guitar fairly hard and slowly turn up the Axe output level until the red light on the amp start to show (clip) - kinda like dialing in the input level on the Axe. Now back the amp level down to 32. Make note of the settings on Axe and amp. You should now be set up properly. You will NOT get any more "volume" out of the RMX with it set up differently as it is now set for max headroom. (Sorry Max..!! couldn't resist).
It's no wonder you had red lights all over the place. And were you using a single Mills cab or both, and how were they connected? This is really fundamental stuff.
[/quote]Good thing I'll be 35 this Monday then! But in all seriousness, thank you for your concern and yes I do try to protect my hearing as much as possible... it is only at the amp fests where we usually push these amps to their limits to see how they compare to each other... at practice we always make sure to level everything out so as to hear everyone properly... we do the same at shows and sometimes I can't even hear myself through my own cab let alone through the monitors, so it's a good thing we practice with a metronome and each of us knows our parts so we don't care if we can necessarily hear ourselves or each other during the shows because let's face it... most of these FOH guys at the local spots don't give a rats a$$ if the guys can hear themselves on stage or not... let alone how the FOH mix sounds. Most places here in SA have sh*tty sound systems. Period.s0c9 said:most professional PA style amps (QSC, Crown, Yamaha, etc.) will push at 2, 4 and 8 Ohms only, and 2-ohm is usually in bridge mode only.mortega76 said:P.S.S. Are there any stereo SS power amps that push at 4, 8 and 16 ohm?
Now that all that is said, I hope you are wearing some kind of hearing protection while doing this stuff. If not you will be TONE DEAF by the time you are 23!~
If you need to run ANY cab with 1500w, you are doing something wrong. Amplifying sound at those levels is what PA's are for, not guitar cabs, even if you are playing "death metal screamo stuff". Lower stage volumes will protect your hearing (long term) and actually let you HEAR what else is happening on stage. Like hearing your vocals, the bass, etc.
You are much more an expert than I in this area and totally correct. Since you pointed it out, I am aware of this, but in my haste to educate in general terms, I neglected to clarify that point. Thanks.Jay Mitchell said:There's one error here: the minimum safe impedance for an amp to drive in bridged mode is always twice the minimum for each channel. An amp that is rated for 2-ohm-per channel loads in stereo is only good to drive a 4-ohm load in bridge mode.
SS power amps don't work that way! The only way output is split in the manner you describe above is if you had 3 cabs connected to the amp and impedance matched. Then each would see approx. 500w. Two cabs would get approx. 750w each. 1 cab would "see" all 1500w - not good for your average 400w 8-Ohm guitar cab.mortega76 said:The only reason I mentioned that we had to put the RMX at 2/3's output was because if you split the output (mathematically) into thirds 1/3 would give you 500 watts (or 2/3rds attenuation, as you put it), 2/3rd's would give you 1000 watts (or 1/3 attenuation) and of course full would give you 1500 watts (or no attenuation)...
I've explained to you several times that this is completely wrong, and now s0c9 has had to explain exactly the same thing twice within the space of half a dozen posts in this epic, yet completely unproductive, thread. You aren't paying attention, and I can't help but believe that this is a big part of the reason you can't get what you're looking for. You're trying things that can't possibly get you where you want to be, based on completely backward perceptions of the way things actually operate.mortega76 said:Thanks for the info on attenuation... The only reason I mentioned that we had to put the RMX at 2/3's output was because if you split the output (mathematically) into thirds 1/3 would give you 500 watts (or 2/3rds attenuation, as you put it), 2/3rd's would give you 1000 watts (or 1/3 attenuation) and of course full would give you 1500 watts (or no attenuation)...
mortega76 said:( why do we need to have global eq's, graphic eq's, parametric eq's, or any other "external" eq just to match up the Axe-fx amp sim to the real amp?)
mortega76 said:I am going to go out on a limb here and say I bet if you were to put the Axe-fx's amp sim (disabling the virtual power amp) into the power amp section of the real amp it will probably be a 1:1... tit-for-tat... mirrored "image" of the amp in question.
mortega76 said:I wrote in another thread where (I thought the power amp sims may not be up to par and) we couldn't get the PVH 5105 amp sim (10.01) to sound close to the real 5150 amp without some massive GEQ... mainly in lows and especially in the mids... which leads me to believe that some of the higher gain amp sims have something that is not working well to give us the true sound of what a cranked up high gain monster can do. Cliff has stated many times where an amp sim (specifically the Recto New) shouldn't be cranked past 10 to 11 o'clock (3.0 or 4.0)... well, we had the 5150 crank to 3 o'clock (or what would be around 8.0 or 9.0) and it sounded soooo beautifully brutal.
mortega76 said:There are some folks (Mark Day) who have set their Global EQ with some crazy settings as a "set it and forget it" to make is sound more like a tube amp using a SS power amp... I would rather have my Global EQ, PEQ, GEQ as an "as needed" effect instead of a "required" effect.
mortega76 said:Also, this notion of "use your ears" (or that that 1:1 does not apply) nullifies every single suggested tone amp setting that is recommended on just about every tube amp forum out there on the web doesn't it?
mortega76 said:As I mentioned in the other thread... I don't want to bash the Axe-fx... I want it to be the best selling and best sounding modeler it can possibly be, and if it takes some of us folks to bring our experiences to Cliff's attention then hopefully he will take a look and see if there is something that can possibly be improved with his magical geniusness... (is that a real word?)