Any advice on relative levels?

mongoose_eyeball

mongoose_eyeball

Inspired
I've played several gigs now with the MFC and the Axe II, and I've yet to get fully comfortable with it.

My biggest problem right now concerns relative levels. I know the fact that the stage is a different environment from the studio isn't news to anyone. I understand the whole notion that a sound that works on its own may get lost easily in a mix.

But after I painstakingly set patches in my music room to sound relatively consistent, I find it frustrating when some of them get lost in the mix while others jump out too far.

By far the easiest solution would be for me to bring my rig to a band rehearsal and tweak as we play.

But I'm not in a band that rehearses right now. I play four to five nights a week (admittedly, two of them are solo house gigs), but none of the bands I work with ever rehearse. I'm a permanent sub for three or four bands, I play in a band that does big weddings and corporate events, (but the other band members live over 100 miles away), and I do a good bit of French Quarter (Bourbon Street and Frenchman Street) work, which generally involves a rotating cast a players, frequently people I haven't met.

So I'm wondering if anybody else has dealt with this and has any tips for how to normalize relative volume levels between patches without actually setting up with a band...
 
Use the CC35 & 36 method :encouragement:

Set up two buttons on the MFC one to send CC35 and the other to send CC36. 35 knocks the level down by 1db, 36 knocks it up 1 db and your changes are automatically saved. Such a cool feature :)

Just be aware that you don't end up just turning every patch up all the time because you'll soon run into output clipping issues. You may need to bring the louder ones down as opposed to bringing the quieter ones up and then increase the power amp / mixing desk level accordingly
 
Cover'd said:
Use the CC35 & 36 method :encouragement:

Set up two buttons on the MFC one to send CC35 and the other to send CC36. 35 knocks the level down by 1db, 36 knocks it up 1 db and your changes are automatically saved. Such a cool feature :)

Just be aware that you don't end up just turning every patch up all the time because you'll soon run into output clipping issues. You may need to bring the louder ones down as opposed to bringing the quieter ones up and then increase the power amp / mixing desk level accordingly
Click to expand...

Where does this level changes? Amp?
And it remains in your patch without saving it?
Super!
 
It also important to make sure that your patches have a similar tone balance, meaning the relative levels of lows, low-mids, upper-mids and highs. Or at best that you compensate properly for tones that have very different tone balances. Tones without mids sound good at low levels, or skilfully mixed into a recording, but quickly get lost in a live mix. Tones with lots of bottom end often work only when you play what the bass player's doing, otherwise they just muddy up the low end of a live mix.

I try to give FOH a pretty even balance of all tone spectrums, that way they can easily EQ it to fit in with the mix. They can't add something that's not there.
 
one thing I did was to put up a db meter out in front of my cabs and made sure the patches all read the same db.

I really had to tweak them when the levels reached 100db.
 
mongoose_eyeball said:
I understand the whole notion that a sound that works on its own may get lost easily in a mix.

But after I painstakingly set patches in my music room to sound relatively consistent, I find it frustrating when some of them get lost in the mix while others jump out too far.
Click to expand...
You already have the answer: "a sound that works on its own may get lost easily in the mix."

When you try to balance patch levels or dial in your tones without the band behind you, it's 50% guesswork, and you take your chances at the gig.

When you set your levels at home, do it with a backing track. It doesn't have to be the same song—just use a song that's similar. Keep the backing tracks at the same level from one tone to the next.

And as Cover'd said, CC35 and 36 (Volume Increment and Decrement) will help get you by on the fly.
 
It's not just about the volume, but how well a certain sound cuts through a particular mix. Two patches may sound like they're of equal volume by themselves, but if one is, say, significantly more "scooped" compared to the other, that other one is going to appear much louder in the mix.

The only way to do it, as it's been said, is to adjust the volume during rehearsals.

Mike
 
Cover'd said:
Use the CC35 & 36 method :encouragement:

Set up two buttons on the MFC one to send CC35 and the other to send CC36. 35 knocks the level down by 1db, 36 knocks it up 1 db and your changes are automatically saved. Such a cool feature :)

Just be aware that you don't end up just turning every patch up all the time because you'll soon run into output clipping issues. You may need to bring the louder ones down as opposed to bringing the quieter ones up and then increase the power amp / mixing desk level accordingly
Click to expand...

I would also like to know if this adjusts the amp level in the amp block or the output level (last tab on the layout page). Thanks.
 
Chris@KatsuKuriMedia said:
set levels at gig volumes. :)
Click to expand...

and to add....
if you can, do it with a backing track / recording of your songs playing through a PA so you can set the appropriate relative levels between your various rhythm and lead tones..

it's not only about dialling in the tones at gig levels..
it's also about setting the levels in context..

this should get you within 90% of the target config..
the final 10% is down to a little fine tuning when practicing with the band..
 
I record all my patches and scenes within a patch into a DAW using a loop so they always have the exact same input, then use a spectrum analyzer and mastering plugin's to compare levels and frequencies. It's not only the levels you need to adjust, but the perceived loudness as the same patch with different EQ will also sound louder/quieter even if set to the same output level.

I know you can't do this, but in my current cover band, we record our rehearsals with a M-Audio Delta1010 for isolated multitracking, this allows us to review where everyone is after the fact, and then make adjustments so no one is fighting over frequencies. It is insane how we literally turned down to 1/2 volumes of where we used to be when everything cuts through properly, and it also sounds amazing as everyone can be heard perfectly all the time and no one needs to wear earplugs anymore.
 
Unfortunately for me this is trial and error. I can get everything close but only a gig situation will bring out the little niggles. I just remember which patches have issues and tweak them ready for next gig.
 
You can get in the ballpark simpler than I showed in the video linked above. Just hook up the output of your Axe-FX II to a mixer with a meter bridge. I put a piece of tape to mark my 'start' tone level, normally your CLEANEST tone. I shoot to have this work when the output knob on the Axe-FX at noon for direct-to-FOH adjustability maximization.

I then run through each tone and get them close - without listening at all. THEN I check with the db meter (at least 90db+) and judge by ear also.

Assuming you have chosen your cab IR's well, you'd be surprised how fast this can make the process and how accurate it can be.
 
Along the lines of Scott's post, I do it quickly and quietly by running into the DAW and get everything set to around -18dB on the meter. That'll get you in the ballpark - pretty close in my experience. After you do it a while you'll get a feel for where cleans and dirties need to be adjusted on the meter to make them even closer. Then you can tweak it from there when you're live & at volume.
 
CodePoet said:
Along the lines of Scott's post, I do it quickly and quietly by running into the DAW and get everything set to around -18dB on the meter. That'll get you in the ballpark - pretty close in my experience. After you do it a while you'll get a feel for where cleans and dirties need to be adjusted on the meter to make them even closer. Then you can tweak it from there when you're live & at volume.
Click to expand...

Stupid question because I've never used a DAW (yet). Can I do this through the USB connection from the Axe to my PC?
 
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