AFX Quantum vs. Tubes

[J.C]

They aren't the same, but close enough to fool most. One sounds mic'd, the other sounds like an amp in the room. Depending who you are, one works better than the other. I haven't had that "sold all my amps" experience but who cares? Tube amps don't replace an Axe FX I don't know why people get hung up thinking the Axe should replace a tube amp.

If you wish to record, the Axe Fx is the clear winner for getting the job done right quick. It's just so easy, and allows us casuals who don't have practice rooms or isolated studios to get to work whatever time of day it is.

It's the best gear a working or hobby guitarist has had the opportunity to purchase when it comes to getting the job done.

 

[scottburrow]

Over the weekend, I was reading the "Tone Wizards" book that was mentioned in this thread:
http://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/tone-wizards-give-away.107924/#post-1292121

One of the questions the author was asking all the interviewees was their opinion on modelers - the AxeFX in particular.
I found it interesting that many of them said that for them the sound was there but not the "feel".
I've only played through modelers with the exception of playing through an AC15 at a local GC.

With the recent improvements brought about by the Quantum firmware, is there still something missing in the "feel", or has that gap been bridged?

You have to remember, Chris probably interviewed those folks before Quantum had come out and let's be honest, some of the artists get kick backs from the tools they use in artist endorsements and such, that supplements their income. I asked Cliff when he did the interview with Chris, and he didn't remember, so it could have been done a long time ago for all we know. It takes awhile to get a book published. For the record I have that book and everyone should own it, there are a lot of nuggets of information in there.

This is the discussion to have, is it real or memorex (dating me just a bit) It does matter, because the device you bought is that question, does it sound like a tube amp, is it better than an amp.

I know some folks have been here since it started, they know the answer. I came in 2010 and I found the answer. The device you bought is the most advanced amp simulation in the business. Remember when you couldn't feel the amp sim, I do it came off a Line6 pod. Sounded in the ballpark but just wasn't there. Fast forward a few years with a guy building devices off his kitchen table, who would've thought, that this guy was the one that was going to change the Amp Sim world forever, I bet not him.

I have learned so much more, about the inner workings of an amp that I never would have from a competing product. I was such a newbie, and thought that yeah, I must have this all learned by the end of the week. Impossible and not needed, you walk then run. if you are like me, this becomes your third or fourth job after everything else. I have even read amp books such as Audio Power Amplifier Design, 6th Edition from Safaribooksonline.com. There are a ton of Amplifier books or chapters in books out there. I never would have done that if it wasn't for Fractal. I know that not everything translates, but a lot does.

Thanks Cliff, for striving for the best.

 

[atyourlasthourrr]

Thank you for all the responses and for keeping this discussion civilized.

I basically bought my Axe Fx out of necessity, I had graduated from the university and transitioned from a full time student fluctuating from campus and home to a full time professional who lives in an apartment. There was (and still is) no feasible way for me to have a 100 watt all tube amp and a 4x12 cabinet in my current living space to jam on, especially if I want to record and what not.

Initially I bought a POD HD thinking that the achievable tones would be more than sufficient for me, and they were, but for an all in one solution to my years of dedication to this instrument and art, I felt like I deserved to have the best possible unit to achieve what I wanted.

The Axe FX entered my life shortly after. Initially, there was a big difference in sound between my Axe and my 5150 rig.. but this was more than a year ago. I've since been able to craft tones that my other jam mates claim to be 'perfect', but I've not been able to go back and compare these tones to my tube rig.

I don't run FRFR or anything, just a solid state power amp and an Orange cab (I have a 2x12 and a 4x12). A year ago, there was a very noticeable difference between my Axe and my 5150, but I'm not sure what the verdict would be now.

From what I've read so far, it seems like the capabilities of the Axe Fx very much exceed those of a standard tube amp and cabinet (which seems kind of trivial) but it still doesn't have that "feel".

My experience with this when I'm jamming with my drummer using my Axe Fx is that when I'm not directly in front of my cab I tend to question the quality of my sound because it doesn't seem to fill the room like my tube amp does. However, once I stand in the "beam zone" of my cab I'm instantly extremely satisfied with what I'm hearing.

Is this the "feel" aspect that everyone is referring to?

 

[axel]

These types of threads are always entertaining, but the truth is that it's all a matter of indivual perception. My perception is that the Axe Fx is closer to modeling the real thing than any modeler has ever been.

 

[barhrecords]

For me it varies from amp model to amp model and sometimes FW to FW as to which feel the most like playing a real amp.

With each new major FW revision I find a "star" or two; amp models that just seem to have some extra mojo at their default settings.

Some of the models don't jump out to me as feeling like playing a real amp, but sound great and still useful for what I do. Sometimes it really boils down to the tone and sacrificing a little of the real amp feel is okay for me.

 

[dpeterson]

In the end some guys will just not budge, think they can hear "digital" whatever that means, and not give anything new a chance. That's cool. Meanwhile i'll enjoy 200+ amps and any sound I can dream up all while not going under re-tubing my rig every other year.

 

[atyourlasthourrr]

For me it varies from amp model to amp model and sometimes FW to FW as to which feel the most like playing a real amp.

With each new major FW revision I find a "star" or two; amp models that just seem to have some extra mojo at their default settings.

Some of the models don't jump out to me as feeling like playing a real amp, but sound great and still useful for what I do. Sometimes it really boils down to the tone and sacrificing a little of the real amp feel is okay for me.

I think this pretty much sums it up for me. Albeit, I don't play on my Axe Fx with the intention to outperform another rig. If something sounds good to me then it sounds good and I don't question it, period. I've already decided through my actions that my Axe Fx rig is at the very least just as suitable as my old rig.

Aside from my old rig filling the room more and not having to be in that "beam zone" for me to (for lack of a better word) "feel" my tone/sound, there really isn't any drawback to my Axe Fx rig.

Perhaps this is the 'sacrifice' that you were referring to, and if this is the ONLY drawback then that is very okay by my standards. What I was trying to address in the creation of this thread was whether or not that 'sacrifice' has been significantly minimized by the new Quantum firmware.

If it has awesome, and if it hasn't, awesome. I still love my Axe Fx and will continue to jam on it for as long as I play guitar. This is just all out of curiosity and to potentially help someone who is looking into the Axe Fx but is still unsure of exactly what they will be losing/gaining if they decide to pull the trigger.

 

[Raab90]

My experience with this when I'm jamming with my drummer using my Axe Fx is that when I'm not directly in front of my cab I tend to question the quality of my sound because it doesn't seem to fill the room like my tube amp does. However, once I stand in the "beam zone" of my cab I'm instantly extremely satisfied with what I'm hearing.

Is this the "feel" aspect that everyone is referring to?

I think that's so. However, that "Beam zone" thing you're talking about has nothing to do with the axe's realism per se. How the "amp fills the room" depends solely on 2 things: Your cab, and volume.
If you're using the same orange cab for both ur tube rig and axe, then the difference your getting comes from volume

The following is a bit long and boring asperger explanation that might be wrong, someone please correct me if so. But it might explain this Beam Zone thing, and how it has nothing to do with how realistic the axe's emulations are.

Most likely you had to crank your tube amp loud (louder than you think it was -explanation later on-) to get a good sound. Since that's not necesarily the case with the axe, where you can crank an amp's power amp without actually increasing the volume, you won't have your cab blasting your skin out of your skull, and you won't be filling your room with the sound.

What if you go to a concert at a stadium, and the band doesn't go through a PA, and you're standing way in the back?
The band will get "whole and full" sound from their amps, and you'll hear a shitty and weak sound.

Same thing applies here. The louder it gets, the more it fills. Period.

To be a little more specific, it's not even about volume, but power, or sound pressure level (volume: percieved sound pressure level). If you place a 100 watt head, and a 200 watt head both in front of you, inside a closed hangar, you will hear very little, if any difference in volume (Whut?! How could that be?! D: !!).
There comes a point where things are so loud, that your body will start raising inner pressure in your middle ear to protect your eardrums, and from that point on, any more outter sound pressure will mean a raise in inner pressure to compensate, hence, when stading in front of em, you'll notice little difference in volume between the both of em, even though one's a 100watts more powerfull (This is why volume -sound pressure level perception- is logarithmic). However, if you start walking away from the amps, you'll notice the 200 watt amp sounds just as loud as when you were stading in front of it, but the 100watt's sound will get weaker. If you go as far as you can across the hangar, you'll clearly hear a difference in volume.

As far as possible from both amps, you'll notice the 200watt amp sounds just as good, but the 100watter will sound darker, and it will give you the feeling that it's not filling the room. This is because the 100watter does not have enough power for the higher frequency sound pressure waves to reach to you, and they will vanish half through the way to you, something that won't happen with the 200watt amp. In fact the 200watt amp is pushing the air so hard, it will probably still sound the same as when you were in front of it, cos none of the audible sound pressure waves were lost along the way from insufficient power. (Exaggerated example, there will be some loss)
(Also, this is a very simplified explanation that covers the basic idea, but there's also wave interference, temperature, wavefront perception and other wave phenomena involved)

Now, use this same example with your axe and ur amp in ur room.
You might think you have your axe loud, but if by moving away it feels like it's losing tone,or it's not filling the room, it means it's not loud enough. Turn the volume up, and even though you might not hear a considerable raise in volume, there will be a considerable raise in air sound pressure level that will fill the whole room.

TL;DR

The axe is full of emulated things, but there's just no emulation for LOUD. Just crank the SS amp bud, it'll fill the room just fine.

 

[Georgy]

Amen to Raab90!!

So so true my man, well said, couldn't agree with you more. There's so much other sh!t going on, that it really is hard to gauge sound, just as you say.

 

[Rocket Brother]

Thank you for all the responses and for keeping this discussion civilized.

..........

Is this the "feel" aspect that everyone is referring to?

I think the "feel" aspect is more about the dynamics in your pick attack, transients, blooming, natural compression, sag and all those things that we are used to hearing and feeling from playing real amps that are turned up to their sweet spot.

With the Axe we are so lucky that the sweet spot has turned into sweet spots and that they are available at any volume from bedroom to stadium and even with IEM or (very good) headphones.

 

[lwknives]

I find it interesting that people who are trying a modeler try and make it sound just like their tube amp, and people who have boutique tube amps are trying like crazy to get them to sound like the records they love.
If people took the same mindset when setting up the Axe as they did with their tube amps I think there would be a lot more satisfaction with modelers.

 

[Raab90]

I think the "feel" aspect is more about the dynamics in your pick attack, transients, blooming, natural compression, sag and all those things that we are used to hearing and feeling from playing real amps that are turned up to their sweet spot.

With the Axe we are so lucky that the sweet spot has turned into sweet spots and that they are available at any volume from bedroom to stadium and even with IEM or (very good) headphones.

This!

In this particular case, the feel is a product of it's output dynamic range, which is the difference between minimum sound pressure and maximum sound pressure an amp can produce. So you need to make this difference bigger by cranking the amp loud.

At a low volume, from any tube amp or modeler, you'll hear no "feel" difference between a strong pick and a light pick, cos both would sound equally as low volume. You'd have to crank it high, so that a light pick produces a gentle, low volume sound, and the strong one makes you shake.

Even if you get a full boutique tube amp, which sweet spot's is at a loud volume, and play it with your eyes covered at low volume, you'll probably think it's not dynamic enough, or it's a modeler.
Then crank it to it's sweetspot, play it, and you'll go. OMG this is the real thing, so reponsive holy shat.
Then just the take the eyefold off and shit bricks.

The problem here is most ppl also think that the sweet spot is just tone.
And well, most ppl buy the axe so they don't have to disturb the neighbors, or family, so they usually play it at low volumes.

Some amps however do have a sweet spot at low volumes, and this is why those models tend to shine in the AXE.

Bottom line, is, the AXE's internal dynamics are ultra accurate already, but the last part of the equation does not depend on the AXE, but in volume, to make the axe's dynamics actually be heard!

Usually an amp's sweet spot is around a certain loudness that makes ur body shake. Cos it's just too loud.
My body remember's this feeling.

So I treat my AXE as a tube amp. I crank it ultra loud, until my body skakes, then i tweak it to taste. And If i need to move the master down, i'll turn the volume up until my body shakes again. To me I've never felt any amps in the AXE lack any feel using this method though

I find it interesting that people who are trying a modeler try and make it sound just like their tube amp, and people who have boutique tube amps are trying like crazy to get them to sound like the records they love.
If people took the same mindset when setting up the Axe as they did with their tube amps I think there would be a lot more satisfaction with modelers.

Using a fork and knife to drink soup, and a spoon to eat meat?

I kinda agree, However, amps can be used for recording, in the same way recording modelers can be used to sound live, the problem is that most players don't know how to make an axe sound like an amp, or an amp sound like a record, cos they tend to operate the axe in studio conditions for live use, and the amps in live conditions for studio use.

I think it just depends on how you do your stuff.

 

[ps43203]

Do you guys have any trouble with feedback? If I can have my feedback to play with, that would clinch it for sure because analog tube behavior, as far as feedback goes, includes all the great tones before FB. I use my knob, to do everything, clean, mild od, straight to high gain. If the axe can do this, that there is nothing to discuss, close enough I say. I just need one in my possession to try, someday.

 

[ps43203]

I find it interesting that people who are trying a modeler try and make it sound just like their tube amp, and people who have boutique tube amps are trying like crazy to get them to sound like the records they love.
If people took the same mindset when setting up the Axe as they did with their tube amps I think there would be a lot more satisfaction with modelers.

That is the way to go. Simply don't make it hard and do what you would normally do. If you want to go beyond, then it is there. But, chances are, unless you know what your messing with, you will just make yourself sound like ass.

 

[clarky]

I was in a recording studio on Monday doing some session work
the job in question was 80's style hair metal [sooooo much gratuitous fun.. what a job ! !]

I was after a typical early 80's hi-gain tone
I used a MkIIC and a JCM800, both of which I mod'ed [MV: Post-PI] to turn them into hi-gain beasts..
slung them through the stock 4x12 TV Mix cab..
the mix engineer was like "jeez dude, your tone is absolutely superb.. I've just got to get me one of these"

when a very seasoned ear is telling you that, you know you're hitting the spot..
valves or no valves… the Axe-II just keeps on delivering.. and keeps getting better..
so.. I stopped asking that question long ago..
just using it and sounding awesome is enough for me..

 

[Raab90]

So the conclusion it that players tend to dial the tone with their heads instead of their ears I guess?

Just like clarky said, I don't worry much.
I just plug, select an amp+cab, crank, play.

It's strage. I use my axe like a tube amp not on purpose. I really just use my ears, tweaking while listening if I'm liking what's coming out, then while tweaking my axe, I stop and realize I do the same things I do with a real amp.

It's only a coincidence though.

 

[clarky]

So the conclusion it that players tend to dial the tone with their heads instead of their ears I guess?

Just like clarky said, I don't worry much.
I just plug, select an amp+cab, crank, play.

It's strage. I use my axe like a tube amp not on purpose. I really just use my ears, tweaking while listening if I'm liking what's coming out, then while tweaking my axe, I stop and realize I do the same things I do with a real amp.

It's only a coincidence though.

I guess that is the killer message..

don't worry about intellectualising what's happening inside the box or comparing the microscopic detail between the real and modelled
just crack on being a guitarist with a most awesome rig..

 

[∞Fractals]

This may have nothing to do with what's being discussed - but for clarification ...

RE: Beaming - I've always used the term "beaming' to refer to speakers' (elements and jointly together with their cabs; even FRFR Hi-Fi rigs) noticeable characteristic of SPL and Frequency Response to be in a physical "lane" where the sound is louder and tonally different. Effective where the sound "points" or "beams" (like a flashlight does with light).

Meaning that if you move out of the "beam" (soundstream) you hear a noticeable and distinct loss of volume and tone. I've even heard/seen speakers that beam so badly that you had to rotate them left or right by 90* to get the sound correctly to your ears (off the expected axis). A more simple version is just angling your guitar cabinet "up" to get the sound to your ears (and off the stage floor). I'm sure everyone has heard a band where an instrument coming from just an amp/cab is really loud in it's lane/beam, yet falls off when you move even if just a little (non-PA/FOH scenario).

In this regard, I don't believe the AXEFX has much to do with "beaming" but I could be wrong as phase and other parameters could be involved and that exceeds my knowledge. I'll defer to the more learned here.

 

[clarky]

I like the beaming effect… I exploit it by stepping in and out of it..
depending on the moment within a given song, sometimes I want to hear a whole lot of me.. and others I prefer not..

 

[Moke]

Aside from my old rig filling the room more and not having to be in that "beam zone" for me to (for lack of a better word) "feel" my tone/sound, there really isn't any drawback to my Axe Fx rig.

Maybe this is because you are dialing in your tone while standing in the "Beam Zone"?? This "Beam Zone" is one of the reasons that I love FRFR.