After 10 years, I'm done...

[yek]

There's a video where Pete Thorn compares the 800 to the 1000.

 

[krcassid]

There's a video where Pete Thorn compares the 800 to the 1000.

It's here

 

[boardwlk17]

I love my matrix into my marshall cab out2, out 1 goes to the foh and my monitors

 

[dschaaf]

Just thinking of picking up some EVM-12L's to try with my GT100FX. Are the EVM-12L's different from the EVM-12L "classics"?

Thanks,
D

 

[yek]

Nope. They are the same.

Awesome speakers, for clean as well as dirty tones. But be aware that they need volume.
They only come alive with sufficient input signal. They're quite harsh and they lack bass at low volume.

The speaker's range goes to 7 Hz but at -10 dB or so. By using a GEQ to boost the level of those upper frequencies, I can get a very acceptable sound from my acoustic through an 12L, which isn't possible with other (non FR) guitar speakers.

 

[StickMan]

So get some longer XLR cables then? For $10 per cable you can probably get a decent 10 meter XLR cable. €6,60 for one on Thomann. You can never have such a thing as too many cables.

It's worse than that. A three pack of XLR cables comes up on MusiciansFriend.com's Stupid Deal of the Day with some frequency at $16. But the handling charges is $10, and the shipping is $12, so the whole price goes up to $38. So it more than doubles. The $10 handling charge on a $16 item galls me and I get bloody-minded about it.

I've had the cables in my cart on the SDotD offer twice now, and abandoned them at checkout over that $10 handling fee. They even sent me an email, "You have these items left in your cart...". I deleted it.

I looked in a local music store last weekend. Even cheap-ass cables cost more than $20. So I know the MF deal, even with the S&H is still a bargain.

But still. $10 handling on a $16 item???? I dunno if I can do it.

 

[dschaaf]

Nope. They are the same.

Awesome speakers, for clean as well as dirty tones. But be aware that they need volume.
They only come alive with sufficient input signal. They're quite harsh and they lack bass at low volume.

The speaker's range goes to 7 Hz but at -10 dB or so. By using a GEQ to boost the level of those upper frequencies, I can get a very acceptable sound from my acoustic through an 12L, which isn't possible with other (non FR) guitar speakers.

Great, thanks Yek!

 

[krcassid]

Also, re: cables, I'm a cable freak. My pedal-boards are wired w/ Chord Company Cream and I'm pretty sure the cables were more $ than the pedals...

For this application, I am using Mogami 2549 with Neutrik XLRs from Axe to Matrix. But, more importantly, I had a custom set of speaker cables made from Analysis Plus Clear Oval. Cost me $200/ pair but no use putting junk cables between the Matrix and the EVs. This could be part of the reason I am so happy with this setup

 

[krcassid]

Awesome speakers, for clean as well as dirty tones. But be aware that they need volume.
They only come alive with sufficient input signal. They're quite harsh and they lack bass at low volume.

Note that all of my "tests" above are at "loud" volume. Yek is correct. EVs are not good at low volumes. I am looking for speakers that can stay clean (or get dirty if I choose) at 90-100 dB. I'm not sure where the EVs start to "lose it" but these speakers are not for small club stages, or for the faint of heart!

 

[xykhron]

I've been using 2 2x12s with EVL at 4ohm each with Matrix GT800FX and later with GT1000FX, both 1U height, and this set up kick asses. I tried a lot of power amps, tubed and digital, as well as cabs and speakers, and the best result where achieved with my actual rig and it's even better to my ears since Quantum firmware.
My cabs are cheap ones, Harley Benton, but they sound pretty good. I'll probably try another deeper one like Rectifier or Brunetti with that speakers, or try to make bass reflex ports on HB...

 

[krcassid]

I've been using 2 2x12s with EVL at 4ohm each with Matrix GT800FX and later with GT1000FX, both 1U height, and this set up kick asses. I tried a lot of power amps, tubed and digital, as well as cabs and speakers, and the best result where achieved with my actual rig and it's even better to my ears since Quantum firmware.
My cabs are cheap ones, Harley Benton, but they sound pretty good. I'll probably try another deeper one like Rectifier or Brunetti with that speakers, or try to make bass reflex ports on HB...

I've tried the recto cabs extensively, as well as many other cabs. My personal feeling is that closed back is to bassy/ boxy. I think that may be the problem with the Matrix FR212. It is closed back and about 18" deep. I'm using those 65 cabs you see in pic above because 1.) they are built like tanks and 2) they are 3/4 back. Now, if you are a high-gain guy, maybe closed back better? But, I really like the open backs on my 2 X 12s. I have a 2 x 12 Mesa Recto. You want it?

Interestingly, I also have several 1 X 12 Mesa Thiele's. These cabs were really designed around the EV originally and sound pretty good, not as bassy/ boxy as the Recto. If I was going to a 1 X 12 solution, I might try the Thieles.

 

[jakbur]

Well, the early vote is not looking good for the FR212. My take on this cab? It is just a "bigger" FRFR solution, nearly identical to the "sound" of my RCF NX12s, just BIGGER, but with all the negatives I've come to associate with every other FRFR solution:

1.) Flat, lifeless (compared to cab w/ EVs)
2.) Way too much hi end from that big honking horn/ tweeter assembly
3.) way too much low end (probably the closed back/ ports)--I had to EQ low end heavily on every preset even with the cab decoupled from the floor.
3.) The neo speakers are loud (like my RCFs) but have none of the balls of the guitar cab w/ EVMs.

For those who want to tweak, maybe this can can be EQ'd to work (or maybe just find the right IR?) But, for what I want, this would be a lot of work when the EVs sound great with zero work.

I would hazard a guess that the time/ effort required to get the FR212 properly EQd would be a lot more than the EQ tweaks required to use an IR wit the EVs. Really, the IRs I've tried with the EVs are pretty good. Mostly, I just have to roll off a little low end.

If you are looking for an FRFR solution, this is probably as good as most. If you are looking for "cab in the room", you aren't going to find it here. The Matrix/ EVs have that, in spades.



Since I haven't tried the 800, I can't speak intelligently on this. But, I did talk to Andy at Matrix for a long time on this question. He said:

1.) There is a qualitative difference (not just power) between the 800 and the 1000
2.) He said there is also a qualitative difference between the 1000 and 1600. He said the 1600 is "better" but too powerful for the EVs. He said if you were using the FR212, the 1600 will sound better.

Thanks for your take on this! Much appreciated!

 

[jakbur]

Also, re: cables, I'm a cable freak. My pedal-boards are wired w/ Chord Company Cream and I'm pretty sure the cables were more $ than the pedals...

For this application, I am using Mogami 2549 with Neutrik XLRs from Axe to Matrix. But, more importantly, I had a custom set of speaker cables made from Analysis Plus Clear Oval. Cost me $200/ pair but no use putting junk cables between the Matrix and the EVs. This could be part of the reason I am so happy with this setup

+1 Cables make a significant difference IMHO.

 

[Rex]

...I had a custom set of speaker cables made from Analysis Plus Clear Oval. Cost me $200/ pair but no use putting junk cables between the Matrix and the EVs. This could be part of the reason I am so happy with this setup

Indeed it is. There's nothing like paying premium prices for gear to make you happy with its performance.


For anyone who's interested, here are some cold, dispassionate looks at the real differences between cables:

- Graphic demonstration of cable frequency response
http://www.ovnilab.com/articles/cablewaves.shtml
- How do different cables handle transient spikes?

- Will the patch cords on your pedalboard negate the tone of your premium guitar cables?

- Audio Cables Compared and Recommended

 

[Muad'zin]

It's worse than that. A three pack of XLR cables comes up on MusiciansFriend.com's Stupid Deal of the Day with some frequency at $16. But the handling charges is $10, and the shipping is $12, so the whole price goes up to $38. So it more than doubles. The $10 handling charge on a $16 item galls me and I get bloody-minded about it.

I've had the cables in my cart on the SDotD offer twice now, and abandoned them at checkout over that $10 handling fee. They even sent me an email, "You have these items left in your cart...". I deleted it.

I looked in a local music store last weekend. Even cheap-ass cables cost more than $20. So I know the MF deal, even with the S&H is still a bargain.

But still. $10 handling on a $16 item???? I dunno if I can do it.

It's still cheaper then buying a FRFR cabinet though. It's also often a case of making an order big enough to qualify for free shipping. With Bax in the Netherlands from €50 onwards shipping is free. With Thomann in Germany its fom €60 onwards. Maybe there's other stuff you need? There's always other stuff you need. You can never have too many guitar strings in your personal stock. Or guitar picks? Or regular jack cables? And powerstrips?

Even then $26 is peanuts to solve your home playing problems. You'll spend that kind of money on a night out in the town hitting a few bars with your friends. If this is all that stands in the way to fixing your problems, just do it. After all, you probably spent 100x as much on the Axe and if you already went this far, what's keeping you from going that final step? Or maybe you could go to a local electronics store and just buy a couple of neutrik XLR plugs, some microphone cable and solder them yourself. It's not rocket science. Ground to 1, red to 2 and white to 3.

 

[krcassid]

Indeed it is. There's nothing like paying premium prices for gear to make you happy with its performance.


For anyone who's interested, here are some cold, dispassionate looks at the real differences between cables:

- Graphic demonstration of cable frequency response
- How do different cables handle transient spikes?

- Will the patch cords on your pedalboard negate the tone of your premium guitar cables?

- Audio Cables Compared and Recommended

I think this is vastly oversimplified. I know this has been an ongoing discussion for many years but there are WAY too many smart people (especially in studio & hi-end Hi-Fi) who can hear the difference, regardless of what the oscilloscope says.

Personally, I spent an entire evening in my studio several years ago testing this exact hypothesis, not w/ test instruments, but with my ears. I took about 10 different cables, ranging from crap to very high end, and plugged them into the same place over and over again. There were BIG differences in sound. What surprised me was not the differences but which cables sounded better. I had Mogami, Monster SP 1000... In my pedal rig, the best was Planet Waves, by a pretty decent margin. And, the difference was not subtle. Interestingly, in this application, Mogami was the worst. In the end, I dropped the $ on Chord Company Cream because it sounded the best and, more importantly, seemed to have less noise on my 2 (large, 30 pedals) pedal boards. These boards are carefully buffered, built by a pro and the Chord Co definitely made a difference.

Now, this is all "instrument level" so cable length/ impedance definitely part. I suspect that line level signals would be less important (why I am using Mogami 2549 from Axe/ Matrix). But, speaker cables, no difference? No WAY! Are you trying to say that 18 gauge garbage from Home Depot will sound exactly the same as Analysis Plus Clear Oval? I don't buy it for a second.

Is there a lot of "hype" in the cable world? Yes. Monster made millions selling that kind of hype and most of it was complete BS. Do you have to be smart and try not to buy the hype? Absolutely. But, am I going to start buying my cables at Radio Shack because your meters say "no difference"? No way

 

[jesussaddle]

Great post! I enjoy reading about analog gear, even if I may not be necessary to buy much of it these days, something about seeing rooms furnished with it keeps my bones warm.

 

[Rex]

I think this is vastly oversimplified...

It's not oversimplified at all.

Personally, I spent an entire evening in my studio several years ago testing this exact hypothesis, not w/ test instruments, but with my ears. I took about 10 different cables, ranging from crap to very high end, and plugged them into the same place over and over again.

It would be enlightening to repeat this test in a double-blind situation.

There were BIG differences in sound...Now, this is all "instrument level" so cable length/ impedance definitely part.

Those differences can be attributed to differences in cable capacitance. In the articles I posted, the author acknowledges the fact that, in the case where you have a high output impedance (e.g., guitar pickups), cable capacitance can affect frequency response significantly. And, as you discovered, the most expensive cable doesn't always have the lowest capacitance. And sometimes, our ears prefer the signal changes that come with higher capacitance.

I suspect that line level signals would be less important...

With line-level signals, the differences would be inaudible.

But, speaker cables, no difference? No WAY! Are you trying to say that 18 gauge garbage from Home Depot will sound exactly the same as Analysis Plus Clear Oval? I don't buy it for a second.

That's exactly what I'm saying. The power amp-to-speaker connection is the least-demanding cable application there is. Unless you're running high wattage over long distances, 18-gauge zip cord will be audibly identical to the most expensive fancy-named speaker cable you can find. The boutique cable manufacturers are hoping you won't buy that (and hoping you won't test it, either (double-blind, remember? )).

But, am I going to start buying my cables at Radio Shack because your meters say "no difference"? No way

Of course no way. It just doesn't feel right to do that. Radio Shack cables are...well...cheap. They can't be as good as expensive cables. As long as that feeling is your gauge, the boutique cable companies will keep making money. Side note: my meters are more sensitive than your ears.


I know this can be an emotional topic, and I don't mean to offend anyone. But remember that audio cables are a technical product, designed by engineers. It bothers me when manufacturers take distorted or made-up engineering principles and apply them to cases where they don't apply.

 

[Plexi12xxx]

So my question is whether the magic lies in the GT1000 (2U) or can I get the the same mojo out of the GT800 in a bit cheaper, more compact way?

The Matrix website states that the GT800 and also the GM50 plate amp are class AB. There is no such info for the GT1000, so I wonder what class it is. I would assume that they are all class AB MOSFET, judging by the favorable reviews, because IMO class D amps sound like crap. All of the Matrix amps are fairly light in weight, so I am guessing they all have switching power supplies.

I have never seen a class AB amp with a switching power supply, but no reason why it would not work. Time for a Google search.

BTW - First post/reply. Saving up for an AX8 or possibly AXE FX XL+

 

[StickMan]

It's still cheaper then buying a FRFR cabinet though. It's also often a case of making an order big enough to qualify for free shipping. With Bax in the Netherlands from €50 onwards shipping is free. With Thomann in Germany its fom €60 onwards. Maybe there's other stuff you need? There's always other stuff you need. You can never have too many guitar strings in your personal stock. Or guitar picks? Or regular jack cables? And powerstrips?

Even then $26 is peanuts to solve your home playing problems. You'll spend that kind of money on a night out in the town hitting a few bars with your friends. If this is all that stands in the way to fixing your problems, just do it. After all, you probably spent 100x as much on the Axe and if you already went this far, what's keeping you from going that final step? Or maybe you could go to a local electronics store and just buy a couple of neutrik XLR plugs, some microphone cable and solder them yourself. It's not rocket science. Ground to 1, red to 2 and white to 3.

And, of course, I didn't even need XLR cables, as there's only one set of XLR outputs on the Axe, and they're going to stay connected to my powered FRFR monitors. So all I really needed was long patch cable, which I already had.

I hooked output 2 up to the GX300, and then into my Marshall 4X12. Holy smokes, the fan the the GX300 is outrageously loud. Holy smokes, the 4X12 is bright! The cabinet is one of the cheaper, Chinese made, Marshall 4X12's, and I think it's slightly smaller than a 1960A, but still has Celestions in it.

Anyways, I compensated with a ski slope like eq curve on output 2, set up some of my patches with the FXLoop block on a branch split off before the cab block and tried it out. Could only play at low bedroom volumes last night, but it doesn't feel any more "amp in the room" than my monitors. Could be that it's still a closed back cabinet.

Next step: Hook up the speakers in my Dumble clone to the GX300. It's open back, so we'll see if that makes a difference.