Axe-FX III with Real cab vs. the Real thing

[laxu]

Funny how a few also said Axe should build a power amp - I once created a wish for that and was laughed at.
I still think the (optional) powered version of Kemper is a great idea and many players are into that.
I would prefer a power amp built by Fractal - because I would know the units work perfectly together ... an (optional) integrated solution would killer.

I think Fractal themselves should not make a poweramp because they are a company making digital modelers, not poweramps. But they could team up with a company that focuses on those and make a "Fractal special" model that is made to a spec that pairs well with the Axe-Fx 3.

 

[Amsz]

The Axe pairs well with every amp.
The point is to make an amp that pairs well with guitar cabs and responds like tubes without coloring the sound.

 

[cole lewis]

I’ve tried replicating that experience a whole bunch of times now and I just don’t get it.

I play my real tube heads after playing the Axe, and if anything my brain pretty much instantly hears the EL84 power sections. Compared to similar models in the Axe based on 100 watt heads the only thing I hear different is, tonal differences. The same differences I hear if I use a EL84 amp model in the Axe.

I have a 6505mh and the ENGL Ironball SE. Both are cool little amps. I could never hear anything that convinced me to do a 4cm setup. I still end up playing the Axe 95% of the time.

Maybe I’m just deaf.. I don’t know. I used to hear a difference between the Axe and real amps. At this point I can’t hear anything at all “digital” about the Axe FX. It sounds and feels like I’m playing a real head.

I tried the Ironball first going direct with IR’s. Idk what I expected exactly but I was expecting to be blown away by the direct sound with “real” tube amp color. Honestly that never happened. Instead I spent over an hour trying to get a sound half as good as just using the Savage model in the Axe. Never happened. Get good tones but not as good as the Axe.

Good for you though I guess that your experience is the opposite of mine.

 

[lastcaress83]

Volume/a proper db meter really made a huge difference for me today. I set my 2203x on 1 and checked the dbs then set my axe fx (brit 800) to what I perceived to be a similar volume but was way off. I measured with a db meter I was maybe 20-30db lower on the Axe Fx. Once I matched dbs (@114) the in room sound was MUCH closer between the real amp and the Axe FX+matrix combo. There’s really just NO substitute for volume. One I get a mic pre to go with my e609, I’ll record a decent quality side by side at volume.

 

[cole lewis]

I have always struggled getting liquid lead tones that I love with the Axe-Fx III. I can get every other type of tones easily crunch, edge of breakup, cleans, high gain, but with lead tones I am always hearing things that are not pleasing to my ear, odd frequencies and the way the notes decay is just not quite the same as the real amp for me.

Could you share a clip of someone playing lead (doesn’t have to be you) where you hear what you describe clearly?

 

[laxu]

Volume/a proper db meter really made a huge difference for me today. I set my 2203x on 1 and checked the dbs then set my axe fx (brit 800) to what I perceived to be a similar volume but was way off. I measured with a db meter I was maybe 20-30db lower on the Axe Fx. Once I matched dbs (@114) the in room sound was MUCH closer between the real amp and the Axe FX+matrix combo. There’s really just NO substitute for volume. One I get a mic pre to go with my e609, I’ll record a decent quality side by side at volume.

That's why whenever someone says "the modeler doesn't sound the same" the first thing I ask is "well, did you match the volume with a decibel meter?" The answer is pretty much always "no".

 

[Saarang Narayan]

I have always struggled getting liquid lead tones that I love with the Axe-Fx III. I can get every other type of tones easily crunch, edge of breakup, cleans, high gain, but with lead tones I am always hearing things that are not pleasing to my ear, odd frequencies and the way the notes decay is just not quite the same as the real amp for me.

The Carvin Legacy models will get you there really well. Also an HBE V3 with a TS in front is VERY creamy. It’s one of the easiest tones to dial in imo! Chuck a stereo delay and a tri-chorus and you can easily do super smooth leads. The only challenging bit for me was finding the right IR.

 

[cole lewis]

The Carvin Legacy models will get you there really well. Also an HBE V3 with a TS in front is VERY creamy. It’s one of the easiest tones to dial in imo! Chuck a stereo delay and a tri-chorus and you can easily do super smooth leads. The only challenging bit for me was finding the right IR.

He is into the Mesa mark series, playing through a real cab. He should be fine with that. Nothing says liquid lead like a Mark series amp.

 

[OrganicZed]

I have always struggled getting liquid lead tones that I love with the Axe-Fx III. I can get every other type of tones easily crunch, edge of breakup, cleans, high gain, but with lead tones I am always hearing things that are not pleasing to my ear, odd frequencies and the way the notes decay is just not quite the same as the real amp for me.

Have you tried the @Cooper Carter JP2C gift of tone presets? Those have the liquid lead tone thing going on pretty strong IMO. Also, generally I find that dialing in some speaker compression helps with getting a lead tone to sing.

 

[Orvillain]

That's why whenever someone says "the modeler doesn't sound the same" the first thing I ask is "well, did you match the volume with a decibel meter?" The answer is pretty much always "no".

Decibels meters are notoriously inaccurate, especially the cheap ones you buy from Amazon and the like, and dB isn't the right way to measure in the room sound anyway. You want to be measuring SPL - sound pressure level - and you want to do it with a good quality meter.

Apps on your phone are not accurate either.

 

[lastcaress83]

Decibels meters are notoriously inaccurate, especially the cheap ones you buy from Amazon and the like, and dB isn't the right way to measure in the room sound anyway. You want to be measuring SPL - sound pressure level - and you want to do it with a good quality meter.

Apps on your phone are not accurate either.

What level of accuracy is needed for this kinda thing? I don’t need tenths or hundreths of a db here, just something to get into the ballpark. Sure, a treated room with a $2k SPL meter would be ideal but not at all necessary. This isn’t a 50K audiofool system setup nor is it a professional recording studio.

 

[FractalAudio]

Volume/a proper db meter really made a huge difference for me today. I set my 2203x on 1 and checked the dbs then set my axe fx (brit 800) to what I perceived to be a similar volume but was way off. I measured with a db meter I was maybe 20-30db lower on the Axe Fx. Once I matched dbs (@114) the in room sound was MUCH closer between the real amp and the Axe FX+matrix combo. There’s really just NO substitute for volume. One I get a mic pre to go with my e609, I’ll record a decent quality side by side at volume.

Yup. People don't realize just how loud tube amps are. Alone in a room we never listen to a modeler at the volume of a tube amp.

 

[Orvillain]

What level of accuracy is needed for this kinda thing? I don’t need tenths or hundreths of a db here, just something to get into the ballpark. Sure, a treated room with a 2k SPL meter would be ideal but not at all necessary. This isn’t a 50K audiofool system setup nor is it a professional recording studio.

Typically the threshold for most people to be able to tell the difference in terms of dB is 1-3dBFS, depending on factors like age, hearing sensitivity, etc.

Perception of loudness isn't linear, so this is a really tricky question to answer.

I'd say though if you're trying to make scientific claims, then you need as much accuracy as possible. If you're just titting about at home, then just use your ears.

You can get a decent SPL meter for around £140/$150.



As I said before in the thread, when I match levels with my ears, I can still hear and feel a difference between the Axe3 going into a Seymour Duncan Powerstage, versus my Diezel VH4 - both into the same cab. Although honestly, I'm pretty confident that the Powerstage isn't the amp for me. I wanna try a class AB poweramp or one of the QSC ones that Cliff mentioned before.

 

[Orvillain]

Also I would say, differences are FINNNNEEEEE as long as it isn't a clear good or bad.

My ex-Kemper versus VH4 - Kemper was bad.
QC versus VH4 - QC was undergained a bit. Not quite as bad though.
Axe - it just sounds like a different VH4, perhaps with different tubes, or tolerances in the tonestack, etc.

I just want a good poweramp tbh, and then for live I think I'm ready to move over to Axe.

 

[lastcaress83]

Typically the threshold for most people to be able to tell the difference in terms of dB is 1-3dBFS, depending on factors like age, hearing sensitivity, etc.

Perception of loudness isn't linear, so this is a really tricky question to answer.

I'd say though if you're trying to make scientific claims, then you need as much accuracy as possible. If you're just titting about at home, then just use your ears.

You can get a decent SPL meter for around £140/$150.



As I said before in the thread, when I match levels with my ears, I can still hear and feel a difference between the Axe3 going into a Seymour Duncan Powerstage, versus my Diezel VH4 - both into the same cab. Although honestly, I'm pretty confident that the Powerstage isn't the amp for me. I wanna try a class AB poweramp or one of the QSC ones that Cliff mentioned before.

That’s my point, I’m not publishing a paper here. All I need is a device that I can sit a given distance from my cabinet and at a given amp setting it will give me a measurement that’s consistent over time… which my amazon db meter does. I don’t care if it says 114 db but its really 150db, I’m just matching levels.

 

[lastcaress83]

Also I would say, differences are FINNNNEEEEE as long as it isn't a clear good or bad.

My ex-Kemper versus VH4 - Kemper was bad.
QC versus VH4 - QC was undergained a bit. Not quite as bad though.
Axe - it just sounds like a different VH4, perhaps with different tubes, or tolerances in the tonestack, etc.

I just want a good poweramp tbh, and then for live I think I'm ready to move over to Axe.

I love my matrix. If you’re patient, a good deal will come up. I nabbed my 2016 GT1000FX for $500.00 USD about 3 weeks ago on reverb and it’s great. An absolutely monumental improvement over the power section of my Boss Tube Amp Expander (which is also class AB)

 

[JTI]

I love my matrix. If you’re patient, a good deal will come up. I nabbed my 2016 GT1000FX for $500.00 USD about 3 weeks ago and it’s great. An absolutely monumental improvement over the power section of my Boss Tube Amp Expander (which is also class AB)

I am assuming the TAE power amp is just a repurposed ripped out turd from the Katana. Like everything else Boss does.

 

[Orvillain]

That’s my point, I’m not publishing a paper here. All I need is a device that I can sit a given distance from my cabinet and at a given amp setting it will give me a measurement that’s consistent over time… which my amazon db meter does. I don’t care if it says 114 db but its really 150db, I’m just matching levels.

To be clear... it might read 114dB but in reality be 150dB .... FOR ONE AMP....

For the next amp... it may read 110dB but in reality be 90dB........
IE: You'd be relying on inconsistent numbers across the sample-set. It's not just that the baseline would be out. That's the danger with using apps on phones.

I love my matrix. If you’re patient, a good deal will come up. I nabbed my 2016 GT1000FX for $500.00 USD about 3 weeks ago on reverb and it’s great. An absolutely monumental improvement over the power section of my Boss Tube Amp Expander (which is also class AB)

Yeah I think I'm gonna try a Matrix. My friend @clarky has one and I heard it a few weeks back, and I was convinced. He had his Axe II rig up against my Marshall satch JVM, and it was easily loud and punchy enough.

 

[lastcaress83]

I am assuming the TAE power amp is just a repurposed ripped out turd from the Katana. Like everything else Boss does.

Yup! How’d you know?

 

[JTI]

Yup! How’d you know?

I'm a Boss trauma survivor