FM3 for REAL Jazz

[abendJazz]

If this isn’t a great “Real Jazz Tone” I don’t know if it’s possible for the OP.

Up unto this point FSM gets at least a half dozen nice jazz tones from factory presets. The Dweezil Zappa 65 bassguy can do it.

Go to 12:31 minute mark. It’s Preset #61 (Fox ODS)

thank you GitGuy.

overall the tone is pleasant to listen, even if a bit dark or muffled (is this the right term?).

If you pay attention on the attack 'squeachy, crunched' sound that appears when he hits notes with more dynamic strnght;
now listen to the examples I posted: fast, steady attack, no crunch, no squeach, focus on sweet low mids, while highs are still there just rounded.

in short: what you posted is a cool sound, but not the sound I'm looking for.
When you play harmony with 'smoky wes' preset, you understand what I mean.

 

[PatrickWD]

I found a few more possible solutions for you, so i updated the jazz preset i created earlier with a few new sounds.

Scene 1 : Ampless
Scene 2: Jazzchorus with Vibrolux tonestack. I agree that the jazzchorus is not a good jazzamp, but most of what i don't like comes from the tonestack. By swapping the tonestack with a vibrolux i found it had a warmer sound.
Scene 3: Cleaned up princeton
Scene 4: Tweed deluxe
Scene 5: CA3 preamp

 

[GitGuy513]

thank you GitGuy.

overall the tone is pleasant to listen, even if a bit dark or muffled (is this the right term?).

If you pay attention on the attack 'squeachy, crunched' sound that appears when he hits notes with more dynamic strnght;
now listen to the examples I posted: fast, steady attack, no crunch, no squeach, focus on sweet low mids, while highs are still there just rounded.

in short: what you posted is a cool sound, but not the sound I'm looking for.
When you play harmony with 'smoky wes' preset, you understand what I mean.

Don’t mistake the string noise in some spots because I believe he is actually (at least in part) recording the room sound with a mic to show there’s no fancy post production.

Bottomline, most of what you’re describing is in the hands and heart of the player and not the equipment. You have a sound in your head and I think you probably need to work on that with whatever equipment you get your hands on. One reason why there may be no Polytone specific FAS models is because they seem to be all but extinct. I saw where Henriksen is offering $200 for anyone’s broken or not Polytone towards one of their amps. I have an electronics background and have built a few amps from scratch and while there’s much to know it’s not exactly a huge secret how to design an amp for a certain sound.

Finally, I read enough of your posts to see that you’re a Jazz purist and while I’m a jazz lover I much prefer the Miles Davis Bitches Brew form of Jazz. I also have a level of resentment towards those “purists” that tried to stifle what he was going for at that time and still whine about it. Miles and others like him made the art form grow into something far beyond what might have died otherwise.

 

[GitGuy513]

in short: what you posted is a cool sound, but not the sound I'm looking for.
When you play harmony with 'smoky wes' preset, you understand what I mean.

Maybe you’re just not ready for modeling. It would probably be best to have someone design and build your perfect amp and go with that. Or buy a Henriksen. It appears they are making a mostly flat response solid state small combo.

 

[GitGuy513]

I couldnt post before, so here a 2 examples of iconic jazz guitar sounds

You do understand what you’re hearing especially in the second video? Mostly a straight ahead amp with no breakup EQ’d a specific way. But even more, A very excellent guitar having the sound of the amp resonate the guitar to bring it alive in a certain way. It’s a bunch of variables all the way to the type of strings. Of course can’t forget the player. Overall there’s nothing that sets these tones apart from other tones from other amps. It’s a type of sound and really nothing more.

 

[abendJazz]

You do understand what you’re hearing especially in the second video? Mostly a straight ahead amp with no breakup EQ’d a specific way. But even more, A very excellent guitar having the sound of the amp resonate the guitar to bring it alive in a certain way. It’s a bunch of variables all the way to the type of strings. Of course can’t forget the player. Overall there’s nothing that sets these tones apart from other tones from other amps. It’s a type of sound and really nothing more.

I love your posts!


You like a rock-ish guitar sound, so I'd better just 'expand' my tonal quest (and my limited musical view...) and problem is solved!

So the sound is the 'hands', why to use devices then? All are the same, just a 'passtrhough'.
So why having 100's Fenders Marshall modelled? Just take any amp and use the sound in your hand, and if you dont get the sound you're after, just expand your musical horizons...

I dont know, just a question: are you sure that this approach is useful?
Or it could be more useful to listen to the clips I posted and try to help to get THAT sound, without questioning musician's personal tastes and redirect them somewhere else?

BTW I studied Ethnomusicology at university (traditional music around the world), I do some elctronic music (also experimental), love bossa and flamenco, play some classic jazz... It definitively seems that I'm not the one with 'purist limited' musical view here, I just started this thread to get help, if possible, to get 'THAT sound'. Simple as this.

PS. " I also have a level of resentment towards those “purists” : yeah I can feel it

 

[abendJazz]

I found a few more possible solutions for you, so i updated the jazz preset i created earlier with a few new sounds.

Scene 1 : Ampless
Scene 2: Jazzchorus with Vibrolux tonestack. I agree that the jazzchorus is not a good jazzamp, but most of what i don't like comes from the tonestack. By swapping the tonestack with a vibrolux i found it had a warmer sound.
Scene 3: Cleaned up princeton
Scene 4: Tweed deluxe
Scene 5: CA3 preamp

Thanks again, that's awesome, cant wait to try, I hope tonight or tomorrow.

I'm still learning but there's lot of (complicated) electical technical stuff going on here,
question: can I create a new (or modified) Tonestack to mimic Polytone or such tone?
if possible, how I can get/understand the tonestack (I mean technically, not just the overall tone) used in that kind of ampli?

I promise I'll share my tries on FM3, as soon as I get something near enough

 

[abendJazz]

I re-post the clips, for those who partecipate to the thread but hadnt yet the chance to listen the tones I'm looking for










just for general info, I have both those amps, I'm trying to replicate on FM3 for obvious portability (couple kg against around 15-17), especially now that I got some troubles on my back.

I thank you all for contributions, this community is very active and it's awesome, seriously!
People talking about what they love more: music and guitar tone.

thank you to all, I'm sure we're all building a very interesting thread!


PS
please let's focus on how to get near to those tones on FM3:
frankly it isnt a very productive approach to suggest to change my tastes, tone, music, style, equipments, hands, etc, and that I'm a limited, purist, rigid musicians; it is not even fair, and not even true, for that matter.
Thank you

 

[Geoff]

This was a great thread to learn something about jazz and jazz amps.

However, OP if you are sincerely interested in having the forum help, you would answer some of the questions posed before (maybe i've missed those?). Like what are monitoring through (headphones, cheap monitors, high end monitors, nice big space with a cab, small room with bad acoustics, etc.) ? What volume are you playing at? What kind of guitar are you using? Heck with this level of detail, what kind of strings? Are you trying some of these suggestions like turning the knobs and trying different amps/IRs. You really need to keep an open mind with these sorts of things. These are all key items that might point to ways help you figure this out.

 

[abendJazz]

This was a great thread to learn something about jazz and jazz amps.

However, OP if you are sincerely interested in having the forum help, you would answer some of the questions posed before (maybe i've missed those?). Like what are monitoring through (headphones, cheap monitors, high end monitors, nice big space with a cab, small room with bad acoustics, etc.) ? What volume are you playing at? What kind of guitar are you using? Heck with this level of detail, what kind of strings? Are you trying some of these suggestions like turning the knobs and trying different amps/IRs. You really need to keep an open mind with these sorts of things. These are all key items that might point to ways help you figure this out.

Geoff,

'if you want the help...'?
'did you tried to turn knobs and different amps...?'

...with this start, it's me asking you: are you sure you want to help? It doesnt sounds like that actually, but ready and happy to be wrong here.


anyhow, equipments list is long and for sure the problem is not the equipment (or my hands, as someone said...);
when I plug into a jazz focused amp I get the desired results (refer to clips for the sound).
So better to not introduce even more enthropy, since it's not relevant in this context

I'm sure you can help focusing on the amp issue
thank you

 

[GitGuy513]

I love your posts!


You like a rock-ish guitar sound, so I'd better just 'expand' my tonal quest (and my limited musical view...) and problem is solved!

So the sound is the 'hands', why to use devices then? All are the same, just a 'passtrhough'.
So why having 100's Fenders Marshall modelled? Just take any amp and use the sound in your hand, and if you dont get the sound you're after, just expand your musical horizons...

I dont know, just a question: are you sure that this approach is useful?
Or it could be more useful to listen to the clips I posted and try to help to get THAT sound, without questioning musician's personal tastes and redirect them somewhere else?

BTW I studied Ethnomusicology at university (traditional music around the world), I do some elctronic music (also experimental), love bossa and flamenco, play some classic jazz... It definitively seems that I'm not the one with 'purist limited' musical view here, I just started this thread to get help, if possible, to get 'THAT sound'. Simple as this.

PS. " I also have a level of resentment towards those “purists” : yeah I can feel it

You simply don’t get it!!!

BTW, I own and play an archtop guitar with flat wound strings. So don’t pretend to know what I like.

 

[Dispetech]

Francamente, dato che questo è un forum incentrato sul tono della chitarra, ho pensato che fosse ovvio che stavo parlando del tono e non della musica.

Non so come cambiare il titolo in "FM3 per suono jazz classico (clip all'interno): Polytone, Henriksen e amplificatori focalizzati sul jazz (senza parafango o jazz120)"

well..i didn't need a different title to understand what you meant...

 

[GitGuy513]

frankly it isnt a very productive approach to suggest to change my tastes, tone, music, style, equipments, hands, etc, and that I'm a limited, purist, rigid musicians; it is not even fair, and not even true, for that matter.
Thank you

Who told you to do that?? Way to twist things!!!

It’s very nice of members to do the work for you and make presets for you. What have you done to help your dilemma?? I’m mean you’re obviously very capable and credentialed. Maybe there’s a language gap, but your English seems quite good.

 

[Vito Porkleone]

I can't believe I read this entire thread. We have some really helpful members on this forum, only to be dismissed as idiots (in a manner of speaking).

 

[Patzag]

I can't believe I read this entire thread. We have some really helpful members on this forum, only to be dismissed as idiots (in a manner of speaking).

I'm addicted to this thread! It's a study in human relations.

 

[JoKeR III]

please let's focus on how to get near to those tones on FM3:
frankly it isnt a very productive approach to suggest to change my tastes, tone, music, style, equipments, hands, etc, and that I'm a limited, purist, rigid musicians; it is not even fair, and not even true, for that matter.

That's what a lot of people here are attempting to do. True, there have been a handful of less than helpful comments but unfortunately that is to be expected in a public forum.

Suggesting different amps is not telling you to change your taste, tone or style, they're merely offering currently available options that can accomplish what you are looking for. At least try the suggestions and let us know why they aren't quite right. It's a process and it will take time to get the tone that works for you.

Again, with all of the amps and tone-shaping tools in the FM3, the tone you are looking for is in there, without a doubt. I've spent more time working on a preset to try to offer as many options as I can in one preset than I ever have for a thread. If you won't really try or accept anything that isn't an actual Polytone or Henriksen amp model, then there's no need for further discussion and I can stop wasting my time.

Bottom line: If you are willing to explore options currently available in the FM3 you will continue to receive help. If you are truly looking for the FM3 to provide the tone(s) you want, you must remain open to other possibilities since the amp models you want are not currently available.

 

[PatrickWD]

Thanks again, that's awesome, cant wait to try, I hope tonight or tomorrow.

I'm still learning but there's lot of (complicated) electical technical stuff going on here,
question: can I create a new (or modified) Tonestack to mimic Polytone or such tone?
if possible, how I can get/understand the tonestack (I mean technically, not just the overall tone) used in that kind of ampli?

I promise I'll share my tries on FM3, as soon as I get something near enough

There's a list of predefined tonestacks under the preamp section of the amp block.
There's no Polytone there, but one of the tonestacks might be close. Some polytones i have tried has an active tonestack i think, so perhaps the active one will be close. There's also an option to change the position of the tonestack. Some tonestacks works better as pre, some as post etc.

Other parameters in the ampblock that can be useful:

In the poweramp section: Negative feedback. This reduces distortion, but also makes the sound harder and more harsh.
In the power supply section: Variac: This tightens the amp and cleans it up somewhat when you increase it. Reducing supply sag also does this.
In the speaker section: Speaker drive and speaker compression can be reduced to clean it up more.

 

[Vito Porkleone]

I'm addicted to this thread! It's a study in human relations.

LOL. I came here to get away from work, not be reminded of it !!

 

[unix-guy]

LOL. I came here to get away from work, not be reminded of it !!

But here you can simply walk away and not get fired

 

[Mal]

Don’t mistake the string noise in some spots because I believe he is actually (at least in part) recording the room sound with a mic to show there’s no fancy post production.

Bottomline, most of what you’re describing is in the hands and heart of the player and not the equipment. You have a sound in your head and I think you probably need to work on that with whatever equipment you get your hands on. One reason why there may be no Polytone specific FAS models is because they seem to be all but extinct. I saw where Henriksen is offering $200 for anyone’s broken or not Polytone towards one of their amps. I have an electronics background and have built a few amps from scratch and while there’s much to know it’s not exactly a huge secret how to design an amp for a certain sound.

Finally, I read enough of your posts to see that you’re a Jazz purist and while I’m a jazz lover I much prefer the Miles Davis Bitches Brew form of Jazz. I also have a level of resentment towards those “purists” that tried to stifle what he was going for at that time and still whine about it. Miles and others like him made the art form grow into something far beyond what might have died otherwise.

You really prefer things like Bitches Brew and On the Corner to his 50s output like Kind Of Blue and Porgy and Bess? Remember for Miles being hip was paramount. His wife in the late 60s, Betty Davis, turned him on to Hendrix, Sly Stone and even gave him fashion advice to look more hip and that music, filtered through Miles genius, became Bitches Brew. What you call an art form growing really means making it more popular and popularity for an art form usually means dilution of tbe art.
For tbe record I like Bitches Brew but I don't consider it jazz, it's fusion. Fusion has it's place and is a legitimate form of music but it doesn't swing which is an essential element of jazz. If that makes me a purist then go ahead, resent me.

Also for the record I named my son Miles.