Rivera 2x12 EVM12L's testing and feedback thread

[PerChr]

Hi.
I have started the process of re-shooting my Rivera 2x12 EVM12L cab.
I would like to get some feedback from those of you who are interested in getting your hands on this CabPack.
The plan is to share some test IR's for you and hopefully get some feedback.
Sometimes when mocking about on your own a fresh perspective/set of ears can be really helpful.
So to kick things into gear, here's the first test IR
-Left speaker, M160 on cap edge, 2 cm distance
It sounds great on a lot of amps clean, crunch and lead

Per

 

[soheil]

Thanks for sharing these. Will check em out this weekend.

 

[PerChr]

No feedback from anyone?
I'm now done with the M160, Tul G12 and Aston Origin captures.

 

[joegold]

Hi.
I have started the process of re-shooting my Rivera 2x12 EVM12L cab.
I would like to get some feedback from those of you who are interested in getting your hands on this CabPack.
The plan is to share some test IR's for you and hopefully get some feedback.
Sometimes when mocking about on your own a fresh perspective/set of ears can be really helpful.
So to kick things into gear, here's the first test IR
-Left speaker, M160 on cap edge, 2 cm distance
It sounds great on a lot of amps clean, crunch and lead

Per

Hi Per

Thanks for doing this.
There's still too few good IRs out there of EVM 12Ls IMO.

I just briefly tried your IR in my MKI/II with one of my Strat Presets.
It sounds OK to me but not really suitable for my purposes.
To me, compared to my real 12Ls as well to to some other 12L IRs I've purchased from RW and OH, it seems a little bit tubby in the lower mids and is lacking in the 'sibilance' that I know and love that real 12Ls have.

Over the years I've learned that the only mic'ing position I like for these drivers is always close (say 1 or 2 in) off-axis at the cap edge (where the dust cap is glued to the cone) with a 57.

I don't have a good D.I. over hear to try the new-ish Mic + D.I. method of capturing IRs.
And I don't have a decent room to put my own cabs in to shoot an IR in a controlled environment.
So my own past attempts at shooting IRs of my own cabs have not been real successful.
You, on the other hand, seem to have a better handle on all of this than I do.

So I humbly request that within the current run of IRs you're shooting that you also shoot a few with a 57 off-axis from the cap edge.

Are you planning on selling a cab pack of these IRs or will you just be sharing them?

FWIW
My current fav 12L IR is from Red Wirez old SpeakerBox collection (a mahogany open back 1 X 12 cab) 12L Series.
It's name is: EVM12L-SM57-CapEdgeOffAxis-1in.
I converted the 48k mono wav file to a Standard Res .syx file.
I don't think the original .wav was long enough to warrant converting it to Ultra Res although I tried that too and tend to prefer the sound of the Standard Res IR.

This is the only 12L IR I have that comes close to replicating what my real 12L loaded cabs sound like when mic'd.
As I mentioned earlier, there's a 'sibilant', high-end component to the tone of a real 12L that becomes most noticeable when using single coil pickups for bright clean chording.
With most IRs that do not have these frequencies already dialled-out (either via EQ on the mic pre when shooting the IR or via mic placement) although they might be suitable for my bright clean tones, they come off as being too harsh to use for more gainy tones as well as too bright for my dark jazz tones, unlike my real 12Ls.
And if the IR does already have these frequencies attenuated, the IR may become more suitable for gainy or jazz tones but loses the bite I need for bright cleans on the Strat.

Sure I could use separate 12L IRs for my bright cleans and for my dirties and for my jazz tones.
But I've always been searching for a single IR that works across the board just like my real 12Ls work across the board.
Plus, I play live with real 12Ls.
So If I could send a feed to the FOH that is extremely close to what I hear from my cabs I can bypass the need for the sound guy to use mics on my cabs.
And when I do any tracking at home, w/o mics, I can be reasonably content that my direct sound will be very similar to my live sound.
Etc.

So, for me, the more 12L IRs that are out there, the better.

Thanks.

 

[PerChr]

Hi Per

Thanks for doing this.
There's still too few good IRs out there of EVM 12Ls IMO.

I just briefly tried your IR in my MKI/II with one of my Strat Presets.
It sounds OK to me but not really suitable for my purposes.
To me, compared to my real 12Ls as well to to some other 12L IRs I've purchased from RW and OH, it seems a little bit tubby in the lower mids and is lacking in the 'sibilance' that I know and love that real 12Ls have.

Over the years I've learned that the only mic'ing position I like for these drivers is always close (say 1 or 2 in) off-axis at the cap edge (where the dust cap is glued to the cone) with a 57.

I don't have a good D.I. over hear to try the new-ish Mic + D.I. method of capturing IRs.
And I don't have a decent room to put my own cabs in to shoot an IR in a controlled environment.
So my own past attempts at shooting IRs of my own cabs have not been real successful.
You, on the other hand, seem to have a better handle on all of this than I do.

So I humbly request that within the current run of IRs you're shooting that you also shoot a few with a 57 off-axis from the cap edge.

Are you planning on selling a cab pack of these IRs or will you just be sharing them?

FWIW
My current fav 12L IR is from Red Wirez old SpeakerBox collection (a mahogany open back 1 X 12 cab) 12L Series.
It's name is: EVM12L-SM57-CapEdgeOffAxis-1in.
I converted the 48k mono wav file to a Standard Res .syx file.
I don't think the original .wav was long enough to warrant converting it to Ultra Res although I tried that too and tend to prefer the sound of the Standard Res IR.

This is the only 12L IR I have that comes close to replicating what my real 12L loaded cabs sound like when mic'd.
As I mentioned earlier, there's a 'sibilant', high-end component to the tone of a real 12L that becomes most noticeable when using single coil pickups for bright clean chording.
With most IRs that do not have these frequencies already dialled-out (either via EQ on the mic pre when shooting the IR or via mic placement) although they might be suitable for my bright clean tones, they come off as being too harsh to use for more gainy tones as well as too bright for my dark jazz tones, unlike my real 12Ls.
And if the IR does already have these frequencies attenuated, the IR may become more suitable for gainy or jazz tones but loses the bite I need for bright cleans on the Strat.

Sure I could use separate 12L IRs for my bright cleans and for my dirties and for my jazz tones.
But I've always been searching for a single IR that works across the board just like my real 12Ls work across the board.
Plus, I play live with real 12Ls.
So If I could send a feed to the FOH that is extremely close to what I hear from my cabs I can bypass the need for the sound guy to use mics on my cabs.
And when I do any tracking at home, w/o mics, I can be reasonably content that my direct sound will be very similar to my live sound.
Etc.

So, for me, the more 12L IRs that are out there, the better.

Thanks.

Hi Joey
Thank you for your feedback.
I'll try to shoot some off-axis IR's too.
Personally I have a preference for on-axis mic'ing so there will be some trial and error in the process.
I'll dig up the Redwirez ir you mentioned as a reference to see if I can get closer to your ideal.
And I can post test-ir's in this thread for you to try, if you like. Help me to help you
But, as the cab itself plays an important part in the end result, my cab might not give you your sound.
I think the low-mid tubbyness you mentioned comes mostly from the cabinet.

The CabPack will be offered the FAS-community for free (although donations via paypal are welcome).

Per

 

[Brownmatthall]

Tried em out with my ash bodied HB guitar, while I love the midrange character these IR's have I found them to be pretty dark across the board. lots of punch though which I definitely love, so if the official release squeezed out more top end I think these would be A list for me. it sounds almost like theres a low pass filter on them to my ear

 

[joegold]

Hi Joey
Thank you for your feedback.
I'll try to shoot some off-axis IR's too.
Personally I have a preference for on-axis mic'ing so there will be some trial and error in the process.
I'll dig up the Redwirez ir you mentioned as a reference to see if I can get closer to your ideal.
And I can post test-ir's in this thread for you to try, if you like. Help me to help you
But, as the cab itself plays an important part in the end result, my cab might not give you your sound.
I think the low-mid tubbyness you mentioned comes mostly from the cabinet.

The CabPack will be offered the FAS-community for free (although donations via paypal are welcome).

Per

Hi Per

First off...
If you're really mic'ing this last capture on-axis 2cm away from the cap edge, I'm surprised that it isn't brighter sounding.
Are you also baking some EQ into the IR or is it just the raw mic?
I ask because usually mic'ing on-axis at that position would be a bit brighter and harsher than a similar position with off-axis mic'ing.
I.e. I usually do off-axis close mic'ing of the cap edge to get rid of the excess ice-pick-y top end that close-mic'ing tends to bring out.
Or, the difference I'm hearing probably has to do with the mic you're using as opposed to the 57s I'm used to using. (see below)

Secondly...
The RW IR mentioned up-thread is far from "my ideal".
It's just the closest I've been able to get thus far out of several hundred 12L IRs I own.
I'm surprised that you already own this series of RW IRs.
I'm not sure if they're still for sale on his web site.

Third...
I'll be happy to try out any new IRs you post here.
Just remember that I'm more than a little bit anal and my needs are probably not the same as yours.
So please take everything I say here with a grain of salt.

Fourth...
I've been using 12Ls more or less exclusively since the late '70s.
Whether they're mounted in an open back 1 X 12 or 2 X 12, a Thiele cab, a ported or un-ported close-backed cab, etc. - they've always imparted that top end character that I tried to describe earlier and which is the main thing I can't seem to find in ANY 12L IRs that are out there at the moment.
The differences in cab design seem to mostly affect the bass response with the open back cabs having the least.
I tend to find the 12L too boomy on the bottom end in a closed-back or Thiele cab myself.
And I tend to find most non-12L drivers don't have enough bottom-end (esp. for jazz) when mounted in an open-back cab.
Since I've always preferred the way that open-back cabs disperse the sound across a stage more widely than a closed back cab, enabling the other musicians to hear me better, I've always used open back cabs for my gigs which are usually in small clubs or banquet halls.
I've never tried them in a 4 X 12 though so I can't comment on the realism of some of the 12L 4 X 12 IRs floating around.
I think an IR of your cab would be fine for my purposes if you/we could find some way to bring out that top end to the right degree.

Fifth...
My only experience mic'ing guitar cabs, mostly with a home studio I used to have, is really with SM57s - and that close off-axis cap-edge position might only be able to achieve a decent sound with that particular mic.
So I can't really say what a good mic'ing position would be with a fine condenser mic or even with some other dynamic mic design.
I used to think that some of the RW KM84 captures of the SpeakerBox 12L had what I was looking for, and the stock 12L IR that used to be in the Axe was based on one of these RW KM84 IRs too.
I recorded my 2013 CD release with that stock IR, but I wasn't using a single-coil equipped guitar on that music.
But that IR was quite dull sounding for single-coil clean stuff.

Thanks again.

 

[PerChr]

Tried em out with my ash bodied HB guitar, while I love the midrange character these IR's have I found them to be pretty dark across the board. lots of punch though which I definitely love, so if the official release squeezed out more top end I think these would be A list for me. it sounds almost like theres a low pass filter on them to my ear

Hi Brown,
The complete pack will have 8 different mic's (dynamics, ribbon and condensers) capturing both speakers in various positions and distances.
Really glad you like the punch and the mids. You'll find your top end in some of the other IR's
Try this one, it's a M160-mix with positions 02a and 01a
Brings back some top end without changing too much in lows and mids.

Per

 

[PerChr]

Hi Per

First off...
If you're really mic'ing this last capture on-axis 2cm away from the cap edge, I'm surprised that it isn't brighter sounding.
Are you also baking some EQ into the IR or is it just the raw mic?
I ask because usually mic'ing on-axis at that position would be a bit brighter and harsher than a similar position with off-axis mic'ing.
I.e. I usually do off-axis close mic'ing of the cap edge to get rid of the excess ice-pick-y top end that close-mic'ing tends to bring out.
Or, the difference I'm hearing probably has to do with the mic you're using as opposed to the 57s I'm used to using. (see below)

Secondly...
The RW IR mentioned up-thread is far from "my ideal".
It's just the closest I've been able to get thus far out of several hundred 12L IRs I own.
I'm surprised that you already own this series of RW IRs.
I'm not sure if they're still for sale on his web site.

Third...
I'll be happy to try out any new IRs you post here.
Just remember that I'm more than a little bit anal and my needs are probably not the same as yours.
So please take everything I say here with a grain of salt.

Fourth...
I've been using 12Ls more or less exclusively since the late '70s.
Whether they're mounted in an open back 1 X 12 or 2 X 12, a Thiele cab, a ported or un-ported close-backed cab, etc. - they've always imparted that top end character that I tried to describe earlier and which is the main thing I can't seem to find in ANY 12L IRs that are out there at the moment.
The differences in cab design seem to mostly affect the bass response with the open back cabs having the least.
I tend to find the 12L too boomy on the bottom end in a closed-back or Thiele cab myself.
And I tend to find most non-12L drivers don't have enough bottom-end (esp. for jazz) when mounted in an open-back cab.
Since I've always preferred the way that open-back cabs disperse the sound across a stage more widely than a closed back cab, enabling the other musicians to hear me better, I've always used open back cabs for my gigs which are usually in small clubs or banquet halls.
I've never tried them in a 4 X 12 though so I can't comment on the realism of some of the 12L 4 X 12 IRs floating around.
I think an IR of your cab would be fine for my purposes if you/we could find some way to bring out that top end to the right degree.

Fifth...
My only experience mic'ing guitar cabs, mostly with a home studio I used to have, is really with SM57s - and that close off-axis cap-edge position might only be able to achieve a decent sound with that particular mic.
So I can't really say what a good mic'ing position would be with a fine condenser mic or even with some other dynamic mic design.
I used to think that some of the RW KM84 captures of the SpeakerBox 12L had what I was looking for, and the stock 12L IR that used to be in the Axe was based on one of these RW KM84 IRs too.
I recorded my 2013 CD release with that stock IR, but I wasn't using a single-coil equipped guitar on that music.
But that IR was quite dull sounding for single-coil clean stuff.

Thanks again.

Hi Joey,

I'll be numbering my replies too
1.
No EQ, just the raw mic. But the M160 is a ribbon mic, so it's very musical in the top end. Plus the Great River preamp I'm using is like a modern version of a Neve 1073, very good at taming harshness.
2.
TBH I'm glad that the RW is not your ideal, that will make it easier to provide you with an ir you can live with. It's a great reference though as it's the closest one for you.
I think I bough it back in the Ultra days, I have all of the RW ir's.
3.
Please be as anal as you see fit. I know you have been on the look-out for EVM12L ir's, that work for you, for a very long time. I hope I can help you with that.
4.
Hear, hear! My Rivera 2x12 cab is open back. It was originally fitted with Eminence speakers, I changed them to Vintage 30's after a couple of years,didnt really like them.It wasn't until I bought EVM12L's that I really started to really dig this cab. So I totally agree with you.
5.
I hope I can help you with some ir's that works for you. I'll even try to mix some for you to get you as close as posible.

Try this one, it's a CabLab mix of the Aston Origin (large diaphragm condenser)
The Origin was captured slightly off-axis.
Also check the mix in the reply to brownmatthall
Per

 

[joegold]

Hi Joey,

I'll be numbering my replies too
1.
No EQ, just the raw mic. But the M160 is a ribbon mic, so it's very musical in the top end. Plus the Great River preamp I'm using is like a modern version of a Neve 1073, very good at taming harshness.
2.
TBH I'm glad that the RW is not your ideal, that will make it easier to provide you with an ir you can live with. It's a great reference though as it's the closest one for you.
I think I bough it back in the Ultra days, I have all of the RW ir's.
3.
Please be as anal as you see fit. I know you have been on the look-out for EVM12L ir's, that work for you, for a very long time. I hope I can help you with that.
4.
Hear, hear! My Rivera 2x12 cab is open back. It was originally fitted with Eminence speakers, I changed them to Vintage 30's after a couple of years,didnt really like them.It wasn't until I bought EVM12L's that I really started to really dig this cab. So I totally agree with you.
5.
I hope I can help you with some ir's that works for you. I'll even try to mix some for you to get you as close as posible.

Try this one, it's a CabLab mix of the Aston Origin (large diaphragm condenser)
The Origin was captured slightly off-axis.
Also check the mix in the reply to brownmatthall
Per

Hi Pers

I'll check out this new IR as soon as I get a chance.
Meanwhile, the IR you posted just previous to this one is a little bit "better" (for my purposes) than the 1st one you posted here.
I had a few minutes to tinker with it earlier today.
Doesn't want to make me stop using that RW IR I mentioned earlier yet though.

Meanwhile, I started tinkering with the RW IR again using some of the new-ish parameters in the Cab Block and this time, and now I'm finding that the Ultra-Res version of that same .wav does sound a bit better (especially on the low end) than the Standard-Res version I'd been using previously.
Maybe that .wav IS long enough after all to benefit from the UR processing.

I'm also finding that with the new Filter Slope parameter set to -12dB per oct that I can use the Hi Cut parameter a bit differently than I'd been using it in the past to better tailor the top end.
I.e. I can keep the Hi Cut higher, which leaves more of the desirable sibilance in tact, but cuts out the fizzies more completely above the cut-off frequency.
E.g. With most IRs being used for gain-y tones it usually sounds best to have the Hi Cut (@ the old -6dB per octave slope) to 6000hz or even less.
But with the slope set to -12dB per oct I can put the cut higher, e.g. at 8000hz, which allows for some bright top end on my clean tones but still tames the fizzies on the gain-y-er tones.

For Cliff, if he's reading this:
Shouldn't the Filter Slope parameter (currently on the Preamp page of Axe-Edit's Amp Block editor), which only seems to affect the intensity of the Hi and Low cut parameters (which are on the Advanced page) be on the same page as the Hi and Low cut parameters?
I.e. Although the slope parameter is on the Preamp page its setting does not seem to affect the sound of the Preamp.
And it does affect the sound of the Hi and Low cuts even if the Preamp selected in None.
Or am I missing something?

 

[Brownmatthall]

Hi Brown,
The complete pack will have 8 different mic's (dynamics, ribbon and condensers) capturing both speakers in various positions and distances.
Really glad you like the punch and the mids. You'll find your top end in some of the other IR's
Try this one, it's a M160-mix with positions 02a and 01a
Brings back some top end without changing too much in lows and mids.

Per

Cant wait to try em out later!

 

[joegold]

Hi Joey,

I'll be numbering my replies too
1.
No EQ, just the raw mic. But the M160 is a ribbon mic, so it's very musical in the top end. Plus the Great River preamp I'm using is like a modern version of a Neve 1073, very good at taming harshness.
2.
TBH I'm glad that the RW is not your ideal, that will make it easier to provide you with an ir you can live with. It's a great reference though as it's the closest one for you.
I think I bough it back in the Ultra days, I have all of the RW ir's.
3.
Please be as anal as you see fit. I know you have been on the look-out for EVM12L ir's, that work for you, for a very long time. I hope I can help you with that.
4.
Hear, hear! My Rivera 2x12 cab is open back. It was originally fitted with Eminence speakers, I changed them to Vintage 30's after a couple of years,didnt really like them.It wasn't until I bought EVM12L's that I really started to really dig this cab. So I totally agree with you.
5.
I hope I can help you with some ir's that works for you. I'll even try to mix some for you to get you as close as posible.

Try this one, it's a CabLab mix of the Aston Origin (large diaphragm condenser)
The Origin was captured slightly off-axis.
Also check the mix in the reply to brownmatthall
Per

This one sounds pretty good to me!
Not sure if it will replace what I'm using now but it's definitely a contender.
Thanks.
Keep me posted.

 

[Brownmatthall]

There's that top end I was lookin for, you've done it again per!

 

[PerChr]

This one sounds pretty good to me!
Not sure if it will replace what I'm using now but it's definitely a contender.
Thanks.
Keep me posted.

Nice! Getting closer

 

[PerChr]

There's that top end I was lookin for, you've done it again per!

Excellent, Brown
That's what this thread is all about, getting some honest feedback.
Thanks!

 

[PerChr]

The downloads to feedback ratio is rather disappointing if I may say so....
I'm considering putting this project on hold for now.
Thanks to Joey and Brown for getting involved!

 

[Tator]

Thanks for sharing

 

[PerChr]

One last taste/test/tease, since I've put this project on hold for now.
It's a 50/50 mix of a SM57, on cap edge, of the left and right speakers.
They're taken from a sweet-spot session I did a couple of weeks a go.
Enjoy!

 

[Brownmatthall]

these are REALLY fat for an sm57 capture, the top end is also really sweet consider most people think of the 57 as nasally. tried em with my gain patches and loved the punch and clarity but i dont have too much time right now so im gonna try em with my cleans later!

 

[ChrisMetal86]

Thanks for sharing PerChr, I don't know how I missed this one, but I will try and give these a shot this week. I'm not very familiar with these speakers in person (mostly Mesa V30s & Greenback guy), but I will give you my take on them. I'm still loving the Carvin Legacy IR's a ton! They really mix nicely with some of the 4x12s as well as work alone for my lead work.. Here lately I'm using 2x12 IRs for leads because they seem to cut a little better. Keep up the good work!