Buying and using full range speakers: A few basics

solo-act

Fractal Fanatic
I have seen endless posts from users who are frustrated with or confused about full range speakers, so I slapped this together. I'm not a technical expert so this is focused on the basics.

If you search and read you'll dig up a lot more info than this post. But for those getting started, I'm no different than anyone else. I face the same challenges when it comes to getting great tone direct-to-PA. These are a few things I've seen and learned along the way.

A full range powered PA speaker or floor monitor is not identical to a guitar speaker/cabinet.
It sounds stupidly obvious, but this is the most common complaint I've seen on the axe-fx forum. Users hook it up, play and scratch their heads wondering why it doesn't sound the same as their guitar cabinet. A full range "flat response" powered speaker (FRFR for short) is a completely different animal and the sooner you accept that, the less perplexed you'll be.

Long story short, I recommend a different mind set: Stop thinking about what an unmiced cabinet on stage sounds like. Replace that instead with what a great RECORDING of a guitar rig sounds like. Reference your favorite recordings and get THAT sound into your head. This is your starting point for dialing sounds with a full range speaker.
And--reality check--this is what everyone else hears when they're out in front of a fully miced band or listening to a CD. Give your audience a killer recorded-guitar-cabinet-sound, and you'll be amazed at how many compliments you'll get about your tone from fans, strangers, and soundtechs.

YES you can use a powered speaker and the axe-fx to get the sound of an unmiced guitar cabinet on stage, or get it using an actual guitar cabinet. If that's your goal, stop reading this and search for how to do that. There's plenty of info and various approaches to achieving that. But remember....an unmiced guitar cabinet isn't what the typical listener knows as a great guitar tone.

Don't buy cheap gear.
Do you want to be really frustrated? Buy a budget FRFR powered speaker. You'll be shooting yourself in the foot over and over trying to overcome these basic problems.
1. The high end driver is crispy, brittle, overdone,
If the high end driver isn't smooth you'll endlessly battle the "icepick in the ear" problem on stage and go through hell trying to dial it out without muddying up the sound. IMHO even the JBL prx series, and Mackies from approx the last 7 years have this problem...and it's gets much, much worse with cheap gear.
2. The sonic performance drastically changes at different volumes.
The better the gear, the better it will sound at low AND high volumes, and that is critical for dialing the axe-fx. High quality FRFR speakers make dialing for different volumes A LOT easier. Technically, no speaker sounds the same at low and high volume. And because of that it's never easy to get a guitar patch sounding good at low/high levels. If it's never easy... why in the world make it 10 times harder just to save $200-$300 on a FRFR speaker? You'll spend a couple grand in man-hours trying to compensate for this one fact alone, and if the high end driver isn't high quality, it'll take a lot longer.
3. Frequency separation and balance are poor.
If you wanted to paint a picture, would you close the blinds and turn on a dingy, dim yellow bulb for light, or would you get as much natural ambient sunlight as possible?
With the axe-fx you are painting a sonic picture of a killer tone inside your head. The better your "light" and the cleaner your "canvas", the more accurate the colors will be and the more you will see what you're doing. This is what a high quality FRFR can do for you. There is no substitute for good ears and experience, but a high quality FRFR will make the journey a lot less painful.

Dial tones on the FRFR speaker(s) you perform through & do it at moderate and gig level volumes
Headphones and quiet bedroom dialing are not going to work. Dialing at different volumes is one small reason why great recordings sound good on different systems at different volumes.
HOWEVER, this doesn't mean that you can dial your axe-fx on studio monitors and expect it to translate to PA gear at gig volumes. Why? because some very talented dudes engineered/produced/mastered those great recordings, and they used some of the best equipment in the world to get those tones to translate, and they listened to their work through different systems. Does that mean you can do that yourself with just an axe-fx & studio monitors?
I tried and failed more than a couple times. :lol:
What I do now is listen to a guitar recording through nice studio monitors and try to get the same sound through FRFR speakers at a few different volumes. I also reference across different FRFR speakers. I have two small PA systems and and a powered floor monitor so I have a the opportunity reference my tones across a pair of powered PA speakers, a passive bi-amp PA system, and a floor monitor with a coaxial driver.
You can do the same if you have friends with PAs or powered speakers, or you can take your FRFR/axe-fx rig to a music store and A/B across the PAs they have on display. It's worth the time & effort. You'll learn a lot.

Learn how to dial axe-fx versions of real life gear by researching artists, rigs and tones.
If you're going to go beyond plug and play, you need to do this. I am amazed at how many users expect the axe-fx to come pre-loaded with the tones they want. They want to flip a switch and get a specific tone that's in their head without having a clue what gear was used and how it was dialed.
The axe-fx and a great FRFR speaker aren't going to magically implant this knowledge into your musical skull. YOU have to put it into your head and dial it into the axe-fx before you hear it coming out of a FRFR speaker. And if you don't buy a quality full range speaker, you still won't hear it.
 
xrist04 said:
Great job, solo-act. This should have its own page on the Axe-Fx Wiki!
I prefer not to be immortalized at my current knowledge level :cool: but here's a few links:

Resources I've used, links, and my current FRFR gear:

http://srforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/f/5/0/

http://srforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/f/7/0/

http://srforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/f/17/0/

http://www.fbtusa.net/
One of several companies making quality FRFR systems, I've been told their verve series have the smoother high end drivers of their product line. I use the FBT Verve 8ma as a floor monitor. I wanted accuracy at lower volumes in a small footprint. If you want bigger thump they have plenty of larger enclosures, and products at different price points.
Here's some great info on FBT
And some info on the b&c coaxial speakers in the verve powered floor monitors as well as their other speakers.

Here's a link to some of RCF audio's powered speakers

I currently use the RCF ART 200am. It's 10 years old with heavier magnets and power amps than their newer stuff. But the high end driver is smooth, frequency separation is good, sounds good at low and high volumes.
Since I'm familiar with an older ART series, I'd hazard a guess the newer ones sound good too.

QSC has a powered FRFR and there's a lot of info on the forum

The passive speakers I have are ancient Panasonic Ramsa WS-A200 speakers and an industrial strength Eastern Acoustic works 15" subwoofer
http://www.bcs.tv/pdf/model/14177/ramsa_wsa200.pdf
The ramsa is a speaker from the broadcast industry, but it was known for being pretty smooth and clear for a "budget" (sub-$1200 speaker). Sounds great at a variety of volumes, but the horn gets a little dicey when they're pushed hard. Mine are old, ridden hard and still sound decent.
The subwoofer simply rocks and I highly recommend EAW subs. I don't have hands on experience with the rest of their stuff, but the woofer is great. I believe RCF makes some of the drivers in EAW boxes.

Here's some more links to explore
http://www.nexo-sa.com
http://www.jblpro.com
http://www.yorkville.com
http://www.eaw.com
http://www.fbt.it
http://www.electrovoice.com
http://www.meyersound.com
http://www.danleysoundlabs.com
http://www.isptechnologies.com/
http://www.adraudio.com/
http://www.yamaha.com/ca/
http://www.bagend.com/
http://www.pas-america.com/
http://www.community.chester.pa.us
http://www.dbaudio.com/
I recommend looking beyond the budget Mackie, JBL, and the majority of the sub-$600 enclosures. I've heard a couple are decent, but the majority of the time it isn't worth the hassle of compensating for the sonic handicaps.
 
Thanks for this info. im in the market for some FRFR speakers. ive bene ising a friends JBL Eon G2 10's that i thought sounded ok. Im looking into the FBT MAXX-2A's as i like the size and weight are what i am going for. Anyone find a good price on these anywhere? thanks
 
Thanks Solo! I'm doing the power amp + guitar cab thing right now but who knows down the line? I think I'll print this out for future reference. Thanks again for taking time to share!
 
Great reading...I learned a lot. Since I've joined here, this does appear to be one of the most misunderstood issues - the fact that the axe produces a great "mic'd up tube amp cab" sound - not an exact replica of the "tube amp in a room right behind the guitarist" sound. For some on the forum, it's close enough to that tone for their purposes, and certainly better than lugging around the 18 wheel rigs I've seen described here, so they're really happy. For others, not so well versed in "tube tone", or maybe looking to recreate a different sound in their head, it's actually better than anything they've ever had (that's me)......but finally, there are a small minority of folks (really small) who absolutely require that Tube "punch", "amp in the room sound", and they don't care if the audience is hearing a mic'd sound, and they don't care to hear the same sound as the audience hears...what they want (and they say they require it to play with any semblance of "inspiration") is a real tube amp, with a real cab, really behind them. So be it. There's ways of doing that with the Axe. Don't go FRFR. And there may actually be at least 10 people in the world for whom the Axe-Fx is not the right product... :lol:
 
Just to throw another hat into the ring - I'm using a Renkus Heinz powered monitor and liking it pretty well, except for the weight. :roll:
 
It seems like the majority of folks here like to use a powered monitor rather than a powered mixer plus passive FRFR cabinet(s) or a keyboard amp.

Having experimented with keyboard amps myself, I can see that they are not high-end enough to do the AFX justice.

My problem with powered monitors is that if I decide to go 100% FRFR I'll want to be able to do electric guitar, acoustic guitar and synth guitar all with the same amplification system, and powered monitors don't usually have several inputs with individual EQ on each input.

So, *I'll* probably have to go with a powered mixer (or separate mixer/poweramp) plus passive FRFR monitors.
And I was wondering if anyone out there would recommend a powered mixer that is rack mountable (lightweight would be nice) and up to the task of doing the AFX justice?
 
joegold said:
It seems like the majority of folks here like to use a powered monitor rather than a powered mixer plus passive FRFR cabinet(s) or a keyboard amp.

Having experimented with keyboard amps myself, I can see that they are not high-end enough to do the AFX justice.

My problem with powered monitors is that if I decide to go 100% FRFR I'll want to be able to do electric guitar, acoustic guitar and synth guitar all with the same amplification system, and powered monitors don't usually have several inputs with individual EQ on each input.

So, *I'll* probably have to go with a powered mixer (or separate mixer/poweramp) plus passive FRFR monitors.
And I was wondering if anyone out there would recommend a powered mixer that is rack mountable (lightweight would be nice) and up to the task of doing the AFX justice?

there is another route you could take. A unpowered mixer into an active FRFR cabinet system.
 
joegold said:
My problem with powered monitors is that if I decide to go 100% FRFR I'll want to be able to do electric guitar, acoustic guitar and synth guitar all with the same amplification system, and powered monitors don't usually have several inputs with individual EQ on each input.
http://www.mackie.com/products/802vlz3/
Nothing wrong with one of these or even the 402vlz, but you only get 2 band eq on that. I wish the 802 had a sweepable mid. It's very hard to find a small rackmount mixer (2-3 space) with the same features as a regular mixing board.
This is the closest I could find, http://www.ashly.com/product/mx-406.htm but I went with the 802vlz3 for a miniature hand-carry live rig because I needed inserts, aux sends 3 band, monitor out, etc.. The ashly is about double the price over the mackie I believe. No one else makes anything as small as those mackies with all the extras that larger boards have.

I'd do a mini-board with 3 band eq and an RCF (if you want light) or the FBT verve 12ma (heavier but great B&C coaxial with nice wide "sweet spot". Life will be much easier with a setup like that. Life without something like that--as you know--will be more difficult.
 
This article is very helpful!
I use budget gear at the moment and I would say, it is just O.K. for me - at least better than guitar cabinets but I have to fight with some of the problems you mentioned. You gave me some good criteria for choosing another gear as soon as my financial situation has become better.
On the other hand I would say that the Axe does quite a good job even with cheaper equipment but one should not blame it for not sounding 100% perfect with stuff like that.
 
Good advice. I would add that, for anyone with the gear or access to some kind of hardware or software RTA & measurement mic, it is worthwhile to use this to tweak the global EQ and possibly add a PEQ or two to get a reasonably flat response from whatever FRFR system you're using. This gives you a consistent starting point when building your tones, and you can expect similar sound into any PA that is properly dialed in. (note that "ruler flat" response is not that musical sounding, most folks prefer a roll off of the high frequencies)
 
solo-act said:
Replace that instead with what a great RECORDING of a guitar rig sounds like. Reference your favorite recordings and get THAT sound into your head. This is your starting point for dialing sounds with a full range speaker.

Wow....i post some similar meanings here a few months ago, in german......
Code:
Erstmal ist das Konzept des Axe nicht dazu gedacht Amps zu ersetzen, auch wenn es das vielleicht in einigen Fällen tut. Wenn Du einen guten Gitarrenamp per Mikro abnimmst und Dir das Ergebnis über eine FRFR-Box abhörst, dann hast Du das Resultat dessen was das Axe ist.

@ solo-act, great post for all who wanna know "why" :cool:
 
joegold said:
It seems like the majority of folks here like to use a powered monitor rather than a powered mixer plus passive FRFR cabinet(s) or a keyboard amp.

Having experimented with keyboard amps myself, I can see that they are not high-end enough to do the AFX justice.

My problem with powered monitors is that if I decide to go 100% FRFR I'll want to be able to do electric guitar, acoustic guitar and synth guitar all with the same amplification system, and powered monitors don't usually have several inputs with individual EQ on each input.

So, *I'll* probably have to go with a powered mixer (or separate mixer/poweramp) plus passive FRFR monitors.
And I was wondering if anyone out there would recommend a powered mixer that is rack mountable (lightweight would be nice) and up to the task of doing the AFX justice?

Joe, I have a similar issue with active FRFRs (which I'm selling my no-longer-used rack amp gear for) not having enough inputs. I need to support bass, guitar and keyboards which I want to have in stereo too, so I'm looking into getting a rack line mixer like this Behringer http://www.behringer.com/RX1602/index.cfm?lang=ENG though I've heard mixed reviews on their gear? I'd like something with XLR ins/outs not just 1/4" TRS but most mixers seem to use XLR for mic level not line level inputs. So, I'm looking at line mixers, this Behringer has 8 stereo channels (16 ins), but I'll need to get XLR- 1/4" TRS adapters to use them. I'd be interested in what you think? Active cabs with a line mixer seems to be the simplest option for me: I have the 2 balanced outs from my Ultra, I have a single DI out on my bass preamp that I will split into L & R, and stereo out for my keys which means I need 3 stereo channels at a minimum.

Peace
 
rsm said:
Joe, I have a similar issue with active FRFRs (which I'm selling my no-longer-used rack amp gear for) not having enough inputs. I need to support bass, guitar and keyboards which I want to have in stereo too, so I'm looking into getting a rack line mixer like this Behringer http://www.behringer.com/RX1602/index.cfm?lang=ENG... I have the 2 balanced outs from my Ultra, I have a single DI out on my bass preamp that I will split into L & R, and stereo out for my keys which means I need 3 stereo channels at a minimum.

Peace
Here's an idea Small footprint, maximum versatility and decent quality for the price. I've seen channels fail quite a bit on those behringers. Soundcraft makes small boards too, but nothing as small as the mackie.
 
tubetonez said:
Good advice. I would add that, for anyone with the gear or access to some kind of hardware or software RTA & measurement mic, it is worthwhile to use this to tweak the global EQ and possibly add a PEQ or two to get a reasonably flat response from whatever FRFR system you're using. This gives you a consistent starting point when building your tones, and you can expect similar sound into any PA that is properly dialed in. (note that "ruler flat" response is not that musical sounding, most folks prefer a roll off of the high frequencies)

The Cab IR's, if done properly, provide the high frequency rolloff.
 
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