Getting lost in the mix...

Nero

Nero

Inspired
Hey guys, so i had this tone that i loved, sounded perfect thru my headphones and thru my monitors (M-Audio BX5a), loved the tone i was getting, then i took it to my band's rehearsal and it was thin, i played a track from an MP3 to see if maybe the Eqs were off on the speakers but the sound was full, my EQ on the board was flat too.

SO at this point i started trying the built in presets with the band behind me and I noticed that a lot of them sounded scooped, i'm assuming this may have to do with the PA, but then again the other guitar player has one of those Roland guitar processors that do the MIDI stuff but also has amps and his tones were very full thru the same PA, it felt like the mid range on my AX8 was missing and it was a lot of treble and bass.

I'm just wondering if you guys had this issue and how you debugged it, I know the issue is on my end and something is not setup properly but i'd love to get ideas on how to tweak my preset for best performance, I was using the Brit Brown amp and I'm going for a bit a full sounding distortion that cuts thru the mix
 
Hey Nero,
Did you create your presets at a lower volume, then use them with your band at gig volume? It may be a result of the Fletcher–Munson effect.
 
I did it on somewhat high volume and using the in ear system i was going to use live, i did account for the fletcher effect and made sure that i didn't have too much high or low end, i kept my mids somewhat high but it didn't seem to help much
 
Hmm try the friedman smallbox through the tvmix cab, that should cut like a knife. bedroom sounds rarely transfer to a band situation without tweaks. When "debugging" and when I first go the axe I setup a few presets with different amp ir combos, and bounced between them while playing to see what stuck out better.
 
I had a lead sound that I really like, but when I used it with the band, it disappeared , no matter how high, I turned up the level, I did not cut through.

Then I used a filter block with a 8 dB peak at 1000 Hz. That worked
 
try this, i know it may not be directly your tone but try a JCM800 with the Greenback Cab, all EQ flat, gain to taste.
sound like crap by it self, i know but i a band context, its to me the best example of cutting in a band sound.
 
Best to make your presets if possible in the band setting. I know it's annoying to the other guys but it's the best method. Just let them know ahead of time you need them to help you tweak your presets. I use the 5153 Blue channel sim with a boost and the 5153 mix 1 & 2 cab IR's and that thing cuts through big time. Maybe make a loop of a rhythm riff and let they guys play to it while you make adjustments to the looped riff.
 
bishop5150 said:
Best to make your presets if possible in the band setting. I know it's annoying to the other guys but it's the best method. Just let them know ahead of time you need them to help you tweak your presets. I use the 5153 Blue channel sim with a boost and the 5153 mix 1 & 2 cab IR's and that thing cuts through big time. Maybe make a loop of a rhythm riff and let they guys play to it while you make adjustments to the looped riff.
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nice idea.
 
So last night i played with the drummer, i set up a new preset as a starting point that sounded pretty good, i tweaked it as we played and sounded pretty good. Here's what I did in case any of you want to try, this was using the Friedman V1 and factore #149 cab.

#1 used the graphic EQ from the amp block to boost 800 and 1k, 2db each
#2 set the filters to 100Hz and 7,000H in the cab block
#3 turned the boost on in the amp block but brought the gain down
#4 set the bright cap on at 220pf
#5 bass 4, mids 6, treble 4, presence 4, depth 5


Its amazing how much of a different a cabinet makes, #148 becomes brittle at high volumes but #149 (v30s) keep its body pretty good. Anyways thanks for the ideas, hope this helps others.

Thakns
 
I had this issue before, doesn't matter which PA or FRFR I use, always sound different between home and rehearsal

What I did is went to the Cab block, try to adjust the Low and Hi filters, play some chords and some lead note, and tweak form there.

Best thing to do is went to rehearsal place in advance and spent 30' to tweak your presets, and save it under new name, I use preset a LIVE, preset a HOME, easy to notice
 
Nero said:
So last night i played with the drummer, i set up a new preset as a starting point that sounded pretty good, i tweaked it as we played and sounded pretty good. Here's what I did in case any of you want to try, this was using the Friedman V1 and factore #149 cab.

#1 used the graphic EQ from the amp block to boost 800 and 1k, 2db each
#2 set the filters to 100Hz and 7,000H in the cab block
#3 turned the boost on in the amp block but brought the gain down
#4 set the bright cap on at 220pf
#5 bass 4, mids 6, treble 4, presence 4, depth 5


Its amazing how much of a different a cabinet makes, #148 becomes brittle at high volumes but #149 (v30s) keep its body pretty good. Anyways thanks for the ideas, hope this helps others.

Thakns
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If #148 is brittle at high volume it was likely a low MV setting on the amp you used was too low -at least if it was a gained tone?
 
Big long one ... sorry but it wouldn't let me stop once I'd started. Read it in small portions and you can cancel the papers until next tuesday.

It took me 5 'stages' to initially get live ready presets ...... I don't ever want to use a lot of different amp and cab types between presets for live use so about 5 basic amp/cab presets were enough for me to set up initially and then if needs be I can copy the 'live tested' amp and cab blocks to new presets

Stage 1. Set up basic dry presets at home/studio volume levels using your normal home/studio outboard monitoring (or your cabs at low home volume) By dry I mean just drive/amp/cab blocks and set levels between Scenes or whatever method you use as best you can.

Once you're happy - copy those presets to new locations and re-name them to identify that they are 'live' versions (they aren't yet but will be).

Stage 2. Go somewhere spacious you can set up your live gear at gig volume and play those copied 'live' dry presets - then re-tweak them to sound good.

I didn't add any other FX blocks at this stage because after concentrating on loud dry tones my ears were tired. By the same token I didn't add FX blocks at the previous stage 1 because it would be too many things to work at in the loud room. At this stage I was just going for raw basic tone without overdone gain, bass and treble.

Also it took a bit of time in the cab block .... quite an alien area to shape tone when you're used to having just a real cab for all your tones and any tweaks have to come before it. Don't go overboard with using lots of different cab blocks for live presets is my tip - your audience won't be too bothered either way but a FOH sound person quite likely will .... and it gives you more work dialling in things!

Having a decent sized 'loud' room if possible is quite important too I'd say.

Stage 3. Back home again - return to the original 'home/studio' version dry presets (that sound good in your home set up) and start adding the FX blocks and routing etc.

Then copy the FX blocks and routing over to the live version presets - set up/test MIDI floor controller etc. Much more pleasant doing this in the comfort of your own cave and taking your time over it.

Stage 4. Back to the loud space again and listen to the live presets with FX added and tweak where necessary (if you use reverb blocks it's nearly guaranteed to be too much once you hit a more spacious room and higher volume .... delay levels and tails might surprise you too )

Stage 5. Probably the most crucial stage - full band loud rehearsal(s) - bring your laptop and Axe-Edit along for quick access to things. Once the rest of the band are blattering away you'll maybe find some of your frequencies are probably getting robbed or levels too low/high - so try and find an EQ spot that you cut through - hopefully the tweaks are all contained in the amp block Gain and BMTP parameters - also the Graphic EQ in the amp block is very handy. The 5 band Mesa type one is easiest looking for me and does seem to hit the right spots in guitar tones.

If I had gone to rehearsal just using my home set up idea of ready to gig presets I'd have disappeared in the mix and would have held up everyone as I tried to fix things - doing the initial leg work in stages 1 - 4 cut out a lot of that hassle.

At the end of it all you hopefully have 'home/studio practice' and 'live' version presets. The live presets through my FRFR cabs at low home volume sound flat, middy and not gainy enough to me ..... good old FM ...... and through headphones .... well lets just say I make a third batch of preset versions for those!

I will say I'm lucky enough to have a loud spacious room I can use any night and all weekend that's only a short distance from my house (converted barn office where I work from) ..... and that has helped a lot!

It may sound like I'm over complicating things or making out the Axe-FX is complicated but I'd set up any rig, whether modeller/FRFR based or conventional amp/cab somewhat similar to above - you got to get loud and make note of/store the amp settings.

Obviously, a conventional rig with an amp with all knobs visible is probably a bit quicker to set up on the fly but it still has usually a pedalboard or midi controlled multi-fx in it's loop that needs tweaked at volume too. (My old semi-retired rig is a JMP-1/MIDI FX unit in the loop and a Mesa 50/50 ..... so I've been there!)
 
+1 and for sure a nice method!

I totally understand the difference on the low volume at home settings to stage level settings, but I have a question: If you go to the rehersal room with a recording of the band or a nice backing track with everything except the guitar track and play that thru the FRFR system and you play your part at the same time could that make a good testing to ease up the work before doing it with the actual band?
 
Chiguete said:
+1 and for sure a nice method!

I totally understand the difference on the low volume at home settings to stage level settings, but I have a question: If you go to the rehersal room with a recording of the band or a nice backing track with everything except the guitar track and play that thru the FRFR system and you play your part at the same time could that make a good testing to ease up the work before doing it with the actual band?
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I would think that the recording would have to capture the raw essence of the instruments and their individual frequencies, and the play back system would need to be able to play them back for you. otherwise you might again be battling different EQing in hte recording that make it "nice" etc and it might not really be representative of your live sound.

The other thing to do would be to record your band when you rehearse and see if you really are disappearing and by how much. Get a different perspective ... just my 2 cents
 
Our mixer has the ability to record and replay all the individual tracks. That's the perfect way to play with your band's actual backing track and your actual sound.
 
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