5150 Presence Knob

Do You Want the 5150 Presence Control to be Authentic?

  • Yes

    Votes: 160 36.6%

  • No

    Votes: 277 63.4%
  • Total voters
    437
York Audio said:
Authentic. Anyone who has a real amp with a corresponding model uses their real world settings as a starting point. If those settings sound too far off, they think the model is garbage. Keeping all tapers authentic makes the analog to digital transition much smoother, more intuitive, and immediately familiar to those with experience with the real thing looking for a digital solution.

Plus, having to explain the non-authentic presence taper to people struggling with the model wouldn't be an issue anymore.

The amp is iconic even if the design isn't perfect. My vote goes to honoring the original design.
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First…. You make excellent IR’s that I use in most of my presets. Respect. 👍

But, besides the tapers on the Fractal compared to the actual amp… is the amp sim ‘not’ authentic to the actual amp being modeled?
Plus, there’s drift and sometimes different pots (and whatever else) manufactures use in the same model amp.
ex: Cliff models his great JCM 800… but, so and so also has a 800, same year and everything, no mods… and plays the same guitar (pickups included) yet, when matching settings… they sound different.
Then there’s the mighty cabinet that enters the equation, and if it’s a recorded sound .. mic, mic placement, engineering, post processing … blah blah blah lol

Sorry for playing Captain Obvious… you already know all this sh!t 😄

Also, many of us have never played the real amp before (could be for various reasons) but now we have the option to try / use them… get a sound we like that works for us.
I like Mesa Mark series amp tones, but never owned one. I was a Marshall guy for years. So to me, coming from where I was they’re counter intuitive and annoying to dial in.., so you look into it, and if you land on ‘it’ and get that ‘proper’ sound… it’s a great amp.
Certainly nobody here has actually played all the amps modeled in the Fractal.

While I understand the want for the ‘authentic’ idea, isn’t ‘ideal’ used throughout the rest of the controls in the Fractal… effects included?

I mentioned it here earlier, but I’ll say it again in different words…

Electric guitarists, more than any other instrument, listen to much with their eyes IMO. Option paralysis doesn’t help. Yet we play the most expressive and versatile instrument in the world.
 
I have modded many of my physical amps over the last 50 years to correct what I thought was a component that did not function well as it came from the factory. I would tell the new owner and glue a note in the cabinet stating what was changed and why if I later sold the amp. So, what Cliff has done here is exactly what I have done many times, made a component change, told us and documented it in the Wiki. So, I have no issue with leaving the idealized pot.
 
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I'd love a switch that changes it from authentic to ideal. Even if people don't have the real amps, some rely on photos of their favorite artist's stage rig as a reference for trying to match tones, so authentic tapers make this easier too. It also makes sure that people comparing Fractal's stellar accuracy to real amps get equivalent results when they match the real amp's knobs.

That said, I completely see why many users just want a knob that works more predictably. There are strong arguments for both.

Most of all, I'd just like to know which amps are authentic-tapers and which aren't. It sounds like many are, while a couple of older models are not, and I haven't been able to find a reliable reference for which ones fall into either bucket.
 
Hatata said:
It’s really cool that the team at Fractal values our opinion. This is the best community I have been a part of in my music career. Thanks for valuing our input.
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Big +1 to this. Being able to vote on what we want in the unit, and having responsive communication to the lead dev himself, is practically unheard of.
 
Blows my mind a bit that people don't want authenticity in every single way, shape, and form. But hey... I'm clearly in the minority.

At the end of the day, we should use our ears anyway. But at least real amps, mics, cabs, and studios will always have a place!
 
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Strongly believe it should be authentic, even if it seems dumb. People have used these amps for decades and have built a strong association of how it sounds at various settings. As much as I like to think we just dial by ears, whether we like it or not, the visual position of the knobs makes us dial it a certain way.

The same is true for me for Bogner’s pots, they’re weird but it’s part of the design of the amp and it leads you to interact with it in a unique way.

I can understand why it’s been corrected, but IMO that should be an option. It can become hard on where to draw the line on “correcting” other models too, so I think it’s best to treat the original circuit and production amplifier’s as the reference point. People’s decades long familiarity with the real amps behaviour is a valuable asset to using a model, and IMO, shouldn’t be disturbed where possible.
 
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Hey there,

A real world amp (or whatever is modeled in the Fractal) as a digital copy should be authentic otherwise imho it's not a copy but a replica. It looks like it on the outside, but its not on the inside . (Now that is what the 'others' are doing right?).
I beleave that Fractal gear is on the top in its league because of the 1:1 real world reference.

Therefore I vote: Authentic

Now that I think of it:
Yek's amp guide could be like an info question mark in axe edit or front panel for real amp information. I for instance, dont know about all these real world amps and how they behave. The guide is allready available, maby a 'nice to have' addition -> just a thought <-

Cheers 🍻
 
I sort of wish the poll was questioned like:

Strongly Agree
Somewhat Agree
IDK/others should decide
Somewhat Disagree
Strongly Disagree

Only because I suspect those that would prefer accurate pot tapers probably feel more strongly about it than those who might prefer an idealised one (of course there will be a range of stances too).
 
Another important “incorrect” character of the 5150 is the ridiculously cold bias. It’s awesome we have the ability to adjust it to “proper” settings but anyone with experience of the real amp will be familiar with how it sounds biased overly cold.

IMO they simply don’t sound correct with a warmer bias. We have the parameters to optimise and adjust things, but I think again the factory spec should be the benchmark
 
yek said:
Authentic. Simply because it’s a model of the real amp. It’s explainable, neutral, consistent.
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York Audio said:
Authentic. Anyone who has a real amp with a corresponding model uses their real world settings as a starting point. If those settings sound too far off, they think the model is garbage. Keeping all tapers authentic makes the analog to digital transition much smoother, more intuitive, and immediately familiar to those with experience with the real thing looking for a digital solution.

Plus, having to explain the non-authentic presence taper to people struggling with the model wouldn't be an issue anymore.

The amp is iconic even if the design isn't perfect. My vote goes to honoring the original design.
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Authentic 100%. I also totally agree with the posts from @MirrorProfiles and @James Freeman.
I have had 3 5150's over the last 15 years (Signature now) and I remember having a good conversation with @York Audio about this "weird" behavior when I got my Axe FX III. I think that if the idea is to replicate the original amplifier the true answer is Authentic.
 
There's another behavior I've noticed on all the 5150s I've owned over the years. Even if you are using the Lead Channel, Post-gain value in your Rhythm channel affects the overal tone. More post-gain in the Rhythm channel gives more high end to the Lead Channel. Has anyone noticed this behavior on the real amp?
 
I voted "no" because I believe that errors should not be repeated if they are detected by the manufacturer and later corrected by him. The device should be functional and sound good, and not replicate manufacturer's errors that can be corrected to make the device work better.
 
Callan said:
What about a menu setting to enable global idealized mode.

When enabled, can use an ideal setting across many amps and fx.

There would be a visual representation in both UI and axe edit to show it varies from the real amp.
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Wouldn’t be in favor of this. Too much work for FAS and it would mess with sharing presets.
 
I'm a 5150 enthusiast and always found it funny that the Presence control only worked for the last 1/4 turn of the knob. I read somewhere that Eddie intended it to be that way to discourage guitar players from using it because he found many players' tones too bright at the time. Whether that's true or not, I think the consequence has actually been that it's harder for players to dial in the sweet spot for the Presence knob as it goes from "dull" to "fizz" really quickly once it hits that 3 'o clock position.

Definitely a case of "bug or feature".
 
I initially voted for not authentic (more usable range on the knob) but my mind has been changed by the arguments made in this thread. If the goal is to model the amp then make it as accurate to the actual amp as possible even if the original design was dumb.
 
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