Another Gapless Switching Thread... Solved! (Post #136)

J

juliatk

Member
Hi everyone,

I've been a heavy reader/lurker for about a year now. This is my first post with this thread - be gentle with me. :)

I have both an Axe-FX III MK2 Turbo (got it 1 year ago) and an FM9 Turbo (got it 2 months ago) and I'm coming from the Helix and Kemper worlds as my frame of reference. I'm trying to get simple gapless switching between scenes. I'll outline a worst-case scenario and hope to get clarity on how I can achieve this as easily as possible. I've read the other gapless switching threads and what I was reading was not what I'd consider easy and I've watched several YouTube videos on the topic also without success - so thus my query.

I like to setup a preset for each song in each setlist that my band plays. I assume this to be a pretty standard configuration. Within each preset, I'd like to use up to 8 scenes for the basic components for a song. For instance, scene 1 = Intro, scene 2 = verse, scene 3 = pre-chorus, scene 4 = chorus, scene 5 = bridge, scene 6 = solo, scene 7 = outro, scene 8 = whatever I could possibly need not included in 1-7. Depending upon the song and the needs, the worst-case scenario is that I'd need 8 completely different amps and cabinets/IRs (unlikely, but this extreme example really helps me understand the capabilities and where the difficulty/complexities set in).

Most importantly, I don't want to do any tap dancing. I want to step on 1 different pedal switch (I have an FC12) for each scene and that's it.

I've already experimented a bit and have determined that having 2 different rows with 2 different sets of Amp and Cab blocks seems to be the easy path with a multiplexer to bounce back and forth between amp and cab/block rows (could use a mixer also). What I quickly determined was that I cannot switch amps via channels within the same amp block without getting a gap. No problem, I'll just ping-pong back and forth between the two different amp blocks and plan ahead for the song structure of that particular song preset. As long as I keep both amp blocks on channel A, I have no problems and I can bounce back and forth between a clean amp on Amp block 1, Channel A and a high gain amp on Amp block 2, Channel A with no gaps back and forth to my heart's content.

The challenge happens when I go for preset #3 in the song (using the 3rd different amp) - let's say switching from amp block #2, channel A back to amp block #1, channel B. I'm hoping this is just user error and I'm missing something obvious. When I go from amp block 2 channel A to amp block 1 channel B, I get a gap - either because I'm having to proactively get setup for scene 4 at the same time as scene 3 switch time. Regardless, it appears as though the act of switching from Channel A to Channel B, C or D, regardless of which amp block results in a gap. I would like to do this with 1 button push for each scene.

Completely made up worst-case scenario I can think of is below - assume they all have corresponding cabs as well:
scene 1 = Intro (Amp block 1, Channel A - Twin)
scene 2 = verse (Amp block 2, Channel A - AC30)
scene 3 = pre-chorus (Amp block 1, Channel B - Plexi)
scene 4 = chorus (Amp block 2, Channel B - BE100)
scene 5 = bridge (Amp block 1, Channel C - Bassman)
scene 6 = solo (Amp block 2, Channel C - JC120)
scene 7 = outro (Amp block 1, Channel D - Archon)
scene 8 = whatever else I need (Amp block 2, Channel D - Tweed)

I realize, there are scene controllers and the ability to morph between different presets with an expression pedal, but I have no interest in doing any of that. I just want to be able to do what I have outlined above. Please let me know if that is possible (and how) or not possible (huge bummer for me). Gapless switching is essential to me.

Assuming there is a solution, we'll worry about what I do when the second verse or chorus lands in a place that is not conducive to reusing an already existing scene because it is in the "wrong" amp block that breaks the ping-pong needs of gapless switching. Please help me get over this first hill, then we'll worry about that part later.

Thank you in advance for your assistance.
 
Nice plan, but do you need that many amps?

You want 7 different amps in one song? Risky! When you get that wrong and you constantly pop out in the mix because something is not right, the FOH tech will not go and fix that on and on for you. He will simply lower your fader then so you don't pop out anymore but that also means you sink to an almost inaudible role in the mix.
However you could do that in 3 piece band because there is no one else to disapear behind. But still, the on-going changes could ruin the overall sound impression for the audience.

I could think that a song exists where the cleans got played with a Fender, the rhythm played with a Marshall and then they took a Soldano or Mesa for the solo. Ok. So I'd need 3 amps. But the transition from a normal loud rhythm to a solo is always kind of a break and reset point anyway. So it's two. I need these two with different volume and different EQ maybe, ok, but then they are still two.
 
I think he was doing a worst case scenario? But I don’t want to answer for him. What if when you changed channels you didn’t change the amp instance? Does that change the gap? I haven’t had issues with gaps but I also don’t use that many amps and I try to limit the channel and amp instance changes. May be worth a try?

David
 
You have 2 solutions

Or you accept the limitation of the product and you simplified your way or thinking, while having an amp for clean, and another amp for dist (with whatever effects for them both)

Or you change amp at every riff and you will have a gap.

In the beginning I was like you, annoyed by that gap as the others modelers don’t have it. But they don’t sound as good as the axe.

I still have a mini gap when I switch to my lead scene, even with same amp block on both, even without changing channel between 2 scenes , just adding an eq and a delay and changing the reverb type

This and the gate are the only 2 defaults of the unit. One is a hardware limitation, and the other is a code

But I prefer to have a better sound with a mini gap. Maybe the axe 4 will solve that.
 
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Thanks everyone, I appreciate the replies. Gapless switching is really important to me. It drives me crazy. It looks like the answer to my question is, "no, that's not possible." I am surprised with all of the technology, all the horsepower, all of the engineering and programming mastery of the fractal product(s) and that very important issue (at least to me and I can't believe it's not important to many others also) has not been solved. It sounds like people have accepted it, which is unfortunate. The Axe-FX III delivers God-tone, but without simple/easy gapless switching, that relegates it to a recording device for me (and a damn good one) but I can't use it live to my satisfaction, which is definitely a bummer.

Thanks again to all. Much appreciated.
 
666was999 said:
Nice plan, but do you need that many amps?

You want 7 different amps in one song? Risky! When you get that wrong and you constantly pop out in the mix because something is not right, the FOH tech will not go and fix that on and on for you. He will simply lower your fader then so you don't pop out anymore but that also means you sink to an almost inaudible role in the mix.
However you could do that in 3 piece band because there is no one else to disapear behind. But still, the on-going changes could ruin the overall sound impression for the audience.

I could think that a song exists where the cleans got played with a Fender, the rhythm played with a Marshall and then they took a Soldano or Mesa for the solo. Ok. So I'd need 3 amps. But the transition from a normal loud rhythm to a solo is always kind of a break and reset point anyway. So it's two. I need these two with different volume and different EQ maybe, ok, but then they are still two.
Click to expand...
Typically no - I don't need 8 amps in the same song, but there are definitely songs where I want 3 as you stated and it can't gaplessly switch to amp #3. I was just trying to get my arms around the full capabilities and limitations of the unit. Having the capability to have 8 amps loaded in a preset is not nearly as enticing when I can't gaplessly switch between them in the same song. At that point, it's really no different than having two amps per preset, because that's all it can deliver gaplessly in the same song anyway.

The objective is obviously not to get it wrong and generally speaking we don't have a sound man, because if we do get everything right, we don't generally need a sound man for the bar venues where we typically play. We all have presets for every song, we record ourselves in practice and constantly tweak our song settings/parameters of each instrument until they are right - nobody's popping out of anything when it is right. We use electric drums triggering Superior Drummer samples, even those are meticulously adjusted. If there is a sound man, we let them know that the drums, bass and 2 guitars will be right, all they need to do is put all of those faders at equal values with no EQ (assuming they've tuned the room properly) and the mix for those instruments will be right. They just need to focus on the vocal mics. I have taken this approach in a few bands going back to 2002/2003-ish starting with the POD XT. Believe it or not, it really does work, even back then - albeit with the gaps due to limitations in technology. These limitations have been solved in the Helix, but it just doesn't sound as good as a Fractal as we all know. So now I'm faced with the trade-off of which is more important to me - gapless switching or better tone during live performances. Sadly, if nobody responds with a solution, I will probably lean toward gapless switching.

It appears to me the fractal was designed to be used, even with 2 amps, to primarily use the the channels feature for adjustments. if I do want different amounts of gain, different EQ, different output volume, etc. the "typical" way is to copy and paste the same amp to a new amp channel and make those adjustments, but you can't without a gap once you exceed 2 amps. Additionally, i'm limited to only 4 scene controllers and that's not enough for what I need to do. I am typically controlling at least 12 to 16 parameters within the same song to get it right. Some of these are effects which don't have the gap issue when switching channels, so that's not as much of a deal breaker. I do realize I can assign multiple parameters to the same scene controller, but this is not ideal for what I need to do.

I appreciate that what I'm describing is not necessary for you, but it is a very strong preference for me. That's why I posted it. Thanks.
 
My name is mud said:
You have 2 solutions

Or you accept the limitation of the product and you simplified your way or thinking, while having an amp for clean, and another amp for dist (with whatever effects for them both)

Or you change amp at every riff and you will have a gap.

In the beginning I was like you, annoyed by that gap as the others modelers don’t have it. But they don’t sound as good as the axe.

I still have a mini gap when I switch to my lead scene, even with same amp block on both, even without changing channel between 2 scenes , just adding an eq and a delay and changing the reverb type

This and the gate are the only 2 defaults of the unit. One is a hardware limitation, and the other is a code

But I prefer to have a better sound with a mini gap. Maybe the axe 4 will solve that.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the response Aloysius Devadander Abercrombie (that's long for mud). Yup, my exact quandary - better tone with a gap vs not as good of tone with no gap. Sadly, I'm leaning toward no gap. 98% of people in the audience (those who don't play guitar) will not notice the difference anyway. I think I may have become too accustomed to gapless switching to go backward at this juncture. Thanks man.
 
juliatk said:
...98% of people in the audience (those who don't play guitar) will not notice the difference anyway...
Click to expand...
At least 98% of the audience (including those who DO play guitar) won't notice the gap when you're switching, either. We all (myself included) tend to think the crowd is hanging on our every note and nuance, when in reality they just came to hear a band and have a good time. 😉
 
juliatk said:
Thanks for the response Aloysius Devadander Abercrombie (that's long for mud). Yup, my exact quandary - better tone with a gap vs not as good of tone with no gap. Sadly, I'm leaning toward no gap. 98% of people in the audience (those who don't play guitar) will not notice the difference anyway. I think I may have become too accustomed to gapless switching to go backward at this juncture. Thanks man.
Click to expand...
You can also point your finger in a random direction, everytime you are changing scene, to distract the audience 🤣
 
juliatk said:
The challenge happens when I go for preset #3 in the song (using the 3rd different amp) - let's say switching from amp block #2, channel A back to amp block #1, channel B.
Completely made up worst-case scenario I can think of is below - assume they all have corresponding cabs as well:
scene 1 = Intro (Amp block 1, Channel A - Twin)
scene 2 = verse (Amp block 2, Channel A - AC30)
scene 3 = pre-chorus (Amp block 1, Channel B - Plexi)
Click to expand...

It can be done, with some limitations on the sequence of scenes you use. Here's a clip of switching through 3 different amps when switching from scene 1 to scene 2 to scene 3.



There are many ways to get rid of the gap. At some point though, you have to contend with the sudden change of timbre, which, depending on what you're doing, can be as noticeable as a gap.
 

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GlennO said:
It can be done, with some limitations on the sequence of scenes you use. Here's a clip of switching through 3 different amps when switching from scene 1 to scene 2 to scene 3.



There are many ways to get rid of the gap. At some point though, you have to contend with the sudden change of timbre, which, depending on what you're doing, can be as noticeable as a gap.
Click to expand...

That really good honestly I only hear you switch once but no gap just sound like an amp foot switch
I also agree about timbre and other considerations to is there reverb and delay? And are those changing types and times or mix levels as well . The time based effects can be more noticeable to me than a small gap IMO
But this preset is great , I will check it out
 
I'm also obsessed with gapless switching, and I created a thread on it with my methods. I don't think it can be done with one press of a foot switch, but with two. What I recommend with the worst case scenario you outlined would involve creating channel switching buttons on your FC12 in addition to the scene switching buttons; you can set up two layouts for this to make it easier, have each scene button take you to the channel layout automatically, and have each channel button take you to the scene layout automatically, have it programmed as a per preset layout using overrides for each song if you'd like.

Anyway, you're on scene 1 amp 1ch A, so you switch to scene 2 amp 2 ch A; no gap, like you said. Now, to get gaplessly from scene 2 to scene 3 takes two taps: first press a button to change amp 1 from channel A to channel B while you're still playing amp 2, then switch to scene 3. Continue this pattern for other amp switching where necessary: if whatever amp you're switching to us already on your desired channel on the other amp block, just switch to its scene; if the amp you're switching to is not on the right channel, just switch its channel before you select its scene. That's how I've done it gaplessly with eight different amp models. FWIW, I've never encountered a gap switching cab block channels.

Best of luck!
 
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The idea that a single set will benefit from 4, 6 or 8 amps is perfectly backwards to me. It will be worse. It's a bad idea.
The level matching? The EQ changes? All that impact on the rest of the band and the mix? Digital doesn't make that go away.

The answer here is one or two amps tops and this other thing we have called... pedals. Pedals are fun!
The galaxy of pedals and FX we have is amazing. Running pedals thru an amp gives you a lot of variety and ways to peak out without the risk of resetting your tone stack and place in the mix.

It's what the pros do for a good reason and it's not to avoid preset lag! It's a lot of variety without messing up the core mix.
We see this even in pro presets from touring artists. Their place in the mix is more important than their exact tone b.c the audience hears the band. This is so even in gunslinger acts like Satriani; The guitar is the center of the show. So what does Joe have? Two amps and some pedals. In Joe's case its really one amp twice with slightly different settings b/c every amp is a little different. The second amp is as much a backup. He doesn't need it for the set. I've been backstage at his shows and talked with his tech fwiw.

People that think this is only true in stadiums don't see enough club shows IMHO. Mix always matters. Mix matters more than your tone.
People won't ever remember the difference between, say, Plexi and BE100 but they'll remember "he randomly got too loud / too quiet" real well.
 
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Also, this works if you're not improvising but planning your changes to switch blocks each time. You can do it with improvising with four amp models, duplicated across both amp blocks, so you can always gaplessly switch to any one of them. With eight, you always have to ping pong to the other block, which takes a set plan.
 
Randalljax said:
That really good honestly I only hear you switch once but no gap just sound like an amp foot switch
I also agree about timbre and other considerations to is there reverb and delay? And are those changing types and times or mix levels as well . The time based effects can be more noticeable to me than a small gap IMO
But this preset is great , I will check it out
Click to expand...
That clip has 3 amp types, switched as you go from scene 1 to scene 2 to scene 3. So, two switches. Two presses of a button, which I believe is what the OP is asking for. You can add more if you want more amp types in a single preset. No gap.
 
GlennO said:
That clip has 3 amp types, switched as you go from scene 1 to scene 2 to scene 3. So, two switches. Two presses of a button, which I believe is what the OP is asking for. You can add more if you want more amp types in a single preset. No gap.
Click to expand...
Can you use drastically different amps though like say and AC30
A plexi then those original 3 in your preset or is it that you are keeping similar amps and levels of gain that is the trick
Your preset sounds good to me
 
FPFL said:
The idea that a single set will benefit from 4, 6 or 8 amps is perfectly backwards to me. It will be worse. It's a bad idea.
The level matching? The EQ changes? All that impact on the rest of the band and the mix? Digital doesn't make that go away.

The answer here is one or two amps tops and this other thing we have called... pedals. Pedals are fun!
The galaxy of pedals and FX we have is amazing. Running pedals thru an amp gives you a lot of variety and ways to peak out without the risk of resetting your tone stack and place in the mix.

It's what the pros do for a good reason and it's not to avoid preset lag! It's a lot of variety without messing up the core mix.
We see this even in pro presets from touring artists. Their place in the mix is more important than their exact tone b.c the audience hears the band. This is so even in gunslinger acts like Satriani; The guitar is the center of the show. So what does Joe have? Two amps and some pedals. In Joe's case its really one amp twice with slightly different settings b/c every amp is a little different. The second amp is as much a backup. He doesn't need it for the set. I've been backstage at his shows and talked with his tech fwiw.

People that think this is only true in stadiums don't see enough club shows IMHO. Mix always matters. Mix matters more than your tone.
People won't ever remember the difference between, say, Plexi and BE100 but they'll remember "he randomly got too loud / too quiet" real well.
Click to expand...
I agree with the this and it was in an interview w Michael Britt from Kemper land
He was talking about using 4 or 5 different amps in a song and he said the audience will find it jarring
So he will use 2 amps one clean one dirt and then add a drive pedal for crunch or a slightly gainer profile for the chorus
 
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