Is there such a thing as "Reverse Fletcher Munson"??

boltrecords

boltrecords

Fractal Fanatic
So for a while now I've been having a tough time translating my FRFR tones to a live FOH setting. I always dial in my tones with my RCF monitor cranked. Probably 3/4 or more volume. Just to make sure its at gig volume. But the problem I'm having is not my monitor at a gig. The rcf always sounds great. It's the FoH speakers that always sound weak and lifeless. And it not the same gig. This is at a majority of gigs with all different types of speaker setups.

But one thing that I notice is that when in running a sound check, the FOH speakers don't seem to be pushed as hard as my RCF is. So is it possible that I'm getting a reversed fletcher Munson? Am I dialing in the tones on an almost fully pushed speaker and then the FoH speakers are not having to push as hard so my tones end up weaker?

Any thoughts on this?




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I'm CERTAINLY no expert ...,

But it would make sense to me that it's all based on your starting point ....

If you EQ your sound at a low volume and then increase the volume you're going to get what we think of as the FM effect ....

But, if you EQ your sound at a gig volume and then reduce the volume, it stands to reason you'd get something approximating a REVERSE FM effect ....

Wouldn't you ?
 
You are mixing concepts.

The fully pushed concept is one of tube power amps and speaker break-up, tube amp issues when near maximum. A 100 watt vintage Marshall amp puts out 100 watts of CLEAN power, after that it begins to distort. I've seen old 100 watt Marshalls that put out 180 watts of total power. That pushed the speakers hard, think of eight 25 watts speakers receiving 180watts of power before the introduction of a Fuzz Face or TS-808 to goose the signal.

Odds are your presets are too compressed, too gained out and lack punch as a result.

I find it hard to believe your gig volume is at 80%+ of an RFC's capacity of 1400 watts.
 
Just an FYI, the Fletcher-Munson effect is all about a human's perception of frequency response at different volume levels.

If one listener is is hears the signal at a significantly different volume than another they will likely perceive the frequency response differently.

How hard the speakers are pushed (in regards to the Fletcher-Munson effect) is not the issue, but how loud the signal is to the human listener.
 
I have same issue as Anthony. RCF NX 12 isn't 1400w, it's 700w. But only thing getting turned down is level on Axe front panel, not preset or Amp levels. If I have Axe level at noon, and RCF 1/2 way up, then dial in a preset that is punchy and rocks, then at the gig turn Axe Level down, RCF and FOH sound thin and compressed. No life, no punch. Realizing my gig volume is not as loud as I thought. Turning down the Axe Level on front panel seems to make things sound like gain staging is wrong or something. Too distorted, too thin, too compressed.
 
Bill Piersall said:
I have same issue as Anthony. RCF NX 12 isn't 1400w, it's 700w..
Click to expand...

I got my info from their webpage, "1400 Watt Peak, 700 Watt RMS digital bi-amplification".

Anyway, 80% of 700 is still 560 watts, still insanely loud.
 
luke said:
I got my info from their webpage, "1400 Watt Peak, 700 Watt RMS digital bi-amplification".

Anyway, 80% of 700 is still 560 watts, still insanely loud.
Click to expand...

I agree, it's plenty loud! I run it about 1/2 way up with Axe Level 2 at noon. I don't readjust the RCF level at gig, just turn Axe Level on front panel down. Most FOH sound men seem to want my Axe Level 1 at between 10:00 O'clock and Noon. Lowering level on front panel to RCF or FOH causes same problem. Lower levels sent to RCF than what preset was designed around results in thin, compressed tone. FOH has same results if its front panel level is reduced. I'm usually only reducing front panel levels from noon to 10 O'clock, not drastically cutting levels. Affects clean and dirty presets the same way, thin and compressed, overly distorted. Almost sounds like burying the input of a low wattage tube amp.
May start setting up presets at 10 O'clock, and see if it helps me out.
I play a Strat, usually a Double Verb, Vibroverb clean and a Plexi or JTM45 for pushed tones. Not really using much gain.

Thanks for the suggestions! Keep em coming
 
My theory is that the PAs are just bad.
That RCF is a nice speaker. I have two myself.
 
Bill Piersall said:
I agree, it's plenty loud! I run it about 1/2 way up with Axe Level 2 at noon. I don't readjust the RCF level at gig, just turn Axe Level on front panel down. Most FOH sound men seem to want my Axe Level 1 at between 10:00 O'clock and Noon. Lowering level on front panel to RCF or FOH causes same problem. Lower levels sent to RCF than what preset was designed around results in thin, compressed tone. FOH has same results if its front panel level is reduced. I'm usually only reducing front panel levels from noon to 10 O'clock, not drastically cutting levels. Affects clean and dirty presets the same way, thin and compressed, overly distorted. Almost sounds like burying the input of a low wattage tube amp.
May start setting up presets at 10 O'clock, and see if it helps me out.
I play a Strat, usually a Double Verb, Vibroverb clean and a Plexi or JTM45 for pushed tones. Not really using much gain.

Thanks for the suggestions! Keep em coming
Click to expand...

When you say the FOH is thin and lifeless, what is your basis?

If you are walking out front, how far away from the main speaker arrays are you and about what SPL at that position?

It could be as simple as you are close to the RCF and the SPL is higher for you than the audience.
 
RCF has same problem, I'm sure there is some user error on my part. We play large clubs, multiple PA's, same issues. I didn't seem to have this issue on prior FW's, 11 & 12 sounded great. Not blaming FW, something I'm doing is wrong.
 
barhrecords said:
When you say the FOH is thin and lifeless, what is your basis?

If you are walking out front, how far away from the main speaker arrays are you and about what SPL at that position?

It could be as simple as you are close to the RCF and the SPL is higher for you than the audience.
Click to expand...

Both RCF & FOH sound bad. Had Axe since FW 5, 48yrs old playing for 36 of those years. Basing thin lifeless tone on years of playing and tons of tube amp/ Axe experience. I can correct both RCF & FOH if I reduce gain drastically, and completely re-eq'ing everything. Reducing transformer match to 9 O'clock helps to. But then I've lost gain, sustain and tone I had. Didn't have issue on previous FW's, just since 14-15. I'm sure it's user error and I'm not blaming FW. Love the tone I set up originally, clean and distorted. I'm not a high gain player, so I'm not using too much gain to start with. I have a very usable, punchy, Plexi tone with Axe a level and RCF level at noon. Reduce Axe level to 10 O'clock and it's overly compressed, thin and horrible sounding.
 
barhrecords said:
When you say the FOH is thin and lifeless, what is your basis?

If you are walking out front, how far away from the main speaker arrays are you and about what SPL at that position?

It could be as simple as you are close to the RCF and the SPL is higher for you than the audience.
Click to expand...

Both RCF & FOH sound bad. Had Axe since FW 5, 48yrs old playing for 36 of those years. Basing thin lifeless tone on years of playing and tons of tube amp/ Axe experience. I can correct both RCF & FOH if I reduce gain drastically, and completely re-eq'ing everything. Reducing transformer match to 9 O'clock helps to. But then I've lost gain, sustain and tone I had. Didn't have issue on previous FW's, just since 14-15. I'm sure it's user error and I'm not blaming FW. Love the tone I set up originally, clean and distorted. I'm not a high gain player, so I'm not using too much gain to start with. I have a very usable, punchy, Plexi tone with Axe a level and RCF level at noon. Reduce Axe level to 10 O'clock and it's overly compressed, thin and horrible sounding.
 
Bill Piersall said:
Both RCF & FOH sound bad. Had Axe since FW 5, 48yrs old playing for 36 of those years. Basing thin lifeless tone on years of playing and tons of tube amp/ Axe experience. I can correct both RCF & FOH if I reduce gain drastically, and completely re-eq'ing everything. Reducing transformer match to 9 O'clock helps to. But then I've lost gain, sustain and tone I had. Didn't have issue on previous FW's, just since 14-15. I'm sure it's user error and I'm not blaming FW. Love the tone I set up originally, clean and distorted. I'm not a high gain player, so I'm not using too much gain to start with. I have a very usable, punchy, Plexi tone with Axe a level and RCF level at noon. Reduce Axe level to 10 O'clock and it's overly compressed, thin and horrible sounding.
Click to expand...

The output 1 and output 2 front panel knobs don't affect the tone in the preset itself.

If you are happy with the preset in practice, the affect you are experiencing is somewhere outside the AxeFx.

What kind of space do you have the RCF in when you create the presets? Small room? Treated?
 
barhrecords said:
The output 1 and output 2 front panel knobs don't affect the tone in the preset itself.

If you are happy with the preset in practice, the affect you are experiencing is somewhere outside the AxeFx.

What kind of space do you have the RCF in when you create the presets? Small room? Treated?
Click to expand...

Small room, not treated. Thought about that, because I agree, the output level shouldn't affect gain staging, compression, etc. Gonna try in more open space tonight. I don't have a treated room. Clubs we play are larger venues, occasionally outside, but mostly indoors. I get the Fletcher Munson thing....at low volumes you tend to add more bass etc. to compensate for lower volumes. Then when you turn up the level, the bass can be too strong.
Wouldn't some aspect of this apply in reverse? In other words, presets made at loud volume, bass etc. set accordingly. Then when volume is dropped, bass is less aparrent?
Seems like this makes sense to some extent.
 
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