You Knew Etsy Would Ruin Reverb

I wish people would people would scrutinize those with actual power more than they do celebrities or other random famous/infamous people. Sure, I may stop buying from a company if I think the people who run it are assholes but there's a difference between an asshole who's running their own business and an asshole who directly affects people's lives.

Give everything a couple of years to even out. Cancel culture seems like it's on it's way out but it's whatever. Every generation has shit they prioritize and the previous generations will make fun of them for it, no matter what generation you're from.
 
Twitter is the death of reasonable discourse. Once you limit discourse and exchanges of ideas to 280 characters, gone are the nuanced explanations for positions.

They are replaced with interactions like the Zap!, Pow!, Thwak! balloons of the old Batman TV show as arguments and discourse. Arguments are no longer for understanding another's view of the world, but must be won like a pro wrestling match.

The need for revenge and retribution against perceived oppressors.

Like the quote attributed to Gandhi says, “An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind”

They just introduced voice tweeting. I think its not a bad idea, actually, now there is no chance as I scroll through, that I will absorb a single dumb word. But actually yeah I do think it is a good idea and will hopefully help put people's views into better context without multiple tweets that can get cherrypicked, screengrabbed and abused by bad actors.
 
They just introduced voice tweeting. I think its not a bad idea, actually, now there is no chance as I scroll through, that I will absorb a single dumb word. But actually yeah I do think it is a good idea and will hopefully help put people's views into better context without multiple tweets that can get cherrypicked, screengrabbed and abused by bad actors.
But again in terms of weaponizing discourse, the voice tweet length is 2 minutes 20 seconds. That's just enough time to make a kablam comment, but not a lot of time for qualification or explanation for something nuanced or complex.

Not to mention that it shortens people's attention spans as well as leads them to believe that most issues require that you believe exclusively either option A or option B rather than a host of other more complex possibilities for any given topic.
 
From a news article today....

"A handful of TV networks has enlisted the help of a California private investigator to check stars’ social media for any racist or otherwise unsavory posts, according to a report.

Big-name TV networks, such as CBS, MTV and VH1, are working with Studio City-based Edward Myers & Associates, and have asked the private investigation firm to scour their production and on-air stars’ social media accounts for any blemishes before they get to the public, according to Page Six.

The stars have reportedly been notified of the firm’s task."

This is something I would expect to see in China, not the United States.
 
From a news article today....

"A handful of TV networks has enlisted the help of a California private investigator to check stars’ social media for any racist or otherwise unsavory posts, according to a report.

Big-name TV networks, such as CBS, MTV and VH1, are working with Studio City-based Edward Myers & Associates, and have asked the private investigation firm to scour their production and on-air stars’ social media accounts for any blemishes before they get to the public, according to Page Six.

The stars have reportedly been notified of the firm’s task."

This is something I would expect to see in China, not the United States.

They're just trying to get ahead of any backlash before it affects their bottom line. I'm all for shutting people down for racist shit they say today but for really old stuff I think a slap on the wrists is fine if they're sincerely apologetic.

I imagine all this would feel less ridiculous to some people if we as a society didn't tolerate certain behaviors in the first place rather than turning on a dime and proclaiming that everything is problematic. Also, there's a huge difference between government oppression and a large chunk of society deciding how things are gonna be. I somewhat sympathize with the old white people who are worried about getting "cancelled" but I think in general if your heart's in the right place and you're not a total asshole that's good enough for most people.
 
I'm all for exposing everything because we all have strengths and faults and none of us like to have our weaknesses exposed. but to ignore real data, real statistics and real reality and expect others to do the same is pure insanity.

Well that's exactly where we are, isn't it? Everything is now subjective, including facts. Especially facts. People interpret the same COVID-19 stats in vastly different ways, for example. If the last 10 years could be summed up by a single quote it would be "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge".
 
@deathbyguitar says:
I'm all for shutting people down for racist shit they say today but for really old stuff I think a slap on the wrists is fine if they're sincerely apologetic.

and @Henry replies...
That is my sentiment too.
and I feel the same way...but with 3 caveats:

CAVEAT 1: I do think we need to be a little slower to label someone racist (or for that matter any -ist) when the offense is very old (statute of limitations 5 years, perhaps?) or when the data is ambiguous.

Towards that end, when some offensive-seeming tweet suddenly goes viral, I think there should be a 48-hour grace period in which the offender can "clarify" it, or even take it back entirely, and have the "clarified" version be the version that counts for the purpose of how the public judges their character. I think the "clarified" version should not be regarded as an apology, but as an opportunity for the person to clear up any ambiguities about what they meant. (If an apology is warranted, that's a whole separate category of message.)

This grace period should be acknowledged by all participants, considered part of standard Netiquette. If it's over a weekend or something, perhaps it should be 72 hours.

Of course, I can see the potential for abuse in Caveat 1: You might have some jerk who repeatedly says obnoxious things and then "clarifies" them into some completely unrelated thing that obviously isn't sincere. (Actually, I can see a really good comedian getting a lot of mileage out of doing that: The original statement becomes the setup, and the "clarification" becomes the punchline.)

But, I don't think that kind of abuse undermines the case for Caveat 1, because it'll be pretty obvious if someone's using it insincerely or getting cute. The main advantage of Caveat 1 is that it allows innocent-but-unprepared persons, whose Tweets suddenly go viral, from having their lives ruined. Not everybody walks around with a PR flack at their right elbow! And people shouldn't suddenly be denied a job when they're in their 40's because some dumb comment from their teenaged years comes to light.

CAVEAT 2: As I've said before, I think there needs to be a mix of "Walled Gardens" and "Common Carriers" so that people can choose whether to filter their own inputs in various ways, or interact with society at large in an unfiltered way. A "Walled Garden" is a self-selecting community with community standards, and can reject those who violate those standards. A "Common Carrier," by law, can't do that, or can only do so at the outer extremes. Since there's a temptation to redefine your political opponents' norms as "extreme," limiting someone from access to a "Common Carrier" ought to require a broad vote of the general electorate, and there should be government overview so as to guarantee redress of grievances in the actual American court system. (Naturally, other countries would have their own equivalent Common Carrier platforms attached to their own court systems as desired.)

So, "shutting people down for racist shit they say" would apply to a "Walled Garden" but not to a "Common Carrier" ...or, only at the extreme end of the spectrum. Someone who says something ambiguous or merely insensitive should not be excluded from "Common Carriers" just as they should not be denied access to the Interstate Highway system.

CAVEAT 3: The mix of "Walled Gardens" and "Common Carriers" should handle the issue of "free speech"; but there are other basic freedoms to consider. Even a real, honest-to-goodness racist (or whatever other -ist we all decide to despise) should not fear that they suddenly lose access to medical care, attorneys or public defenders, funeral services, utilities, the ability to receive payments, the ability to use roadways and public transportation, the ability to post their resumes on job sites, the ability to pay for an ISP or cellphone plan, etc., purely on the basis of holding obnoxious opinions. Such things are fundamentals of modern life, and should be considered "Public Accommodations" just as hotel rooms and restaurant tables are. There's a difference between a bit of ostracizing, on the one hand, and starving a person's family to death, on the other.

Oh, since I just mentioned families: No going after family members, not even to force them to renounce their obnoxious brothers-in-law. Just recently I heard that the mother of the Atlanta cop involved in the latest shooting got fired from her job, apparently for not publicly declaring that she despises her son. (I have no further details; I hope that's not all there was to it. If someone knows better, please correct me.)

The goal is to have a free society with a "Marketplace of Ideas." All of the above Caveats are intended to protect that.

This means, of course, that sometimes we will all have to confront obnoxious ideas. Well, good! That's the proper civic duty of any mature adult in a free society: From time to time, we have to cope with obnoxiousness from others without losing our cool or becoming violent.

The alternative is the kind of soft oppression which makes politics invade every aspect of our lives. Think that it's hard to escape political nastiness now? That's only the beginning. The limits on "cancel culture" that I'm describing above are intended to prevent it accosting you every waking hour.

Remember: You may not be interested in culture war; but culture war is interested in you. If we don't get back the protections and norms we used to have, then the fact that you have no particular opinion about this or that cause celebre won't matter. You will be made to care.

And I don't want to have to care, all the time, every single second of the day, about whatever hobby-horse someone else wants to impose on me. I want life to be simple, every now and then. I want to be able to just get away from politics sometimes. I want to just play guitar and walk the dog and not worry that the brand-logo on my shirt or the type of stompbox I use might suddenly be mistaken for a Dipwad Supremacy Flag that I never even heard of. I don't want to have to check Twitter every ten minutes to make sure I'm up-to-date on the New Rules.

I hope at least a few folk feel likewise.
 
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I'm all for shutting people down for racist shit they say today but for really old stuff I think a slap on the wrists is fine if they're sincerely apologetic.
This is the problem. For "free speech" to mean anything, it must apply to everyone, or it doesn't exist. As hard as it is to stomach, a racist's right to speak his mind supersedes anyone's desire to not be offended. Some speech is unlawful, but the guidelines are clearly defined. Being in a free society has its unpleasant aspects, but the alternative is unthinkably worse...and I fear that is what we are beginning to see.
 
This is the problem. For "free speech" to mean anything, it must apply to everyone, or it doesn't exist. As hard as it is to stomach, a racist's right to speak his mind supersedes anyone's desire to not be offended. Some speech is unlawful, but the guidelines are clearly defined. Being in a free society has its unpleasant aspects, but the alternative is unthinkably worse...and I fear that is what we are beginning to see.

I believe that anyone should be allowed to speak their mind 100% as long as you're not harming others. Can't shout "fire" in a movie theater, ect. I think people are entitled to have racist/crazy/awful views but they are not entitled to their opinions being respected or listened to. That's not to say that you can't voice those opinions. If that were true, you'd be thrown in jail for just saying the wrong things.
 
If we don't identify or even agree on what the problem is, how can it be fixed?

We live in a world of double standards that's really dangerous. Some things need to be defined and set it stone such as words and actions. The meaning shouldn't fluctuate depending on who says them or simply say it meant something else to avoid the consequences.

I agree 100%. I think we're gonna get to that point again one day. Everything goes in cycles.
 
@steadystate:
This is the problem. For "free speech" to mean anything, it must apply to everyone, or it doesn't exist. As hard as it is to stomach, a racist's right to speak his mind supersedes anyone's desire to not be offended. Some speech is unlawful, but the guidelines are clearly defined. Being in a free society has its unpleasant aspects, but the alternative is unthinkably worse...and I fear that is what we are beginning to see.
Yeah, but keep in mind we all already agree that the government can't prohibit free speech.

But the problem I'm trying to solve, with that last big post, is the fact that our "public square" is privately owned. All the social media platforms belong to Google or Twitter or Facebook or whatever. So, on the one hand, you can't compel them to take customers, full stop. But on the other hand, as long as privately owned networks constitute our the "public square," then even the most despicable folks need some access to it.

How do we finesse that problem?

Well, fortunately, that's where some existing categories in our law come in! Right now, the social networking sites are sometimes acting like "Common Carriers" (for the purpose of immunity from lawsuits) but other times acting like content-curators/publishers (for the purposes of excluding some content and including other content). Technically, they should be legally required to choose one or the other...but, because politicians want to remain in the good graces of Tech Oligarchs with Deep Pockets, nobody in government is pushing for them to decide what they are. It's been really easy (and very profitable!) for them to remain ambiguous about whether they're Common Carriers or Publishers. It allows them to have the best of both worlds: They get all the editorial control of being a Publisher, but with none of the usual liability risks (e.g. copyright claims or defamation lawsuits). They remain insulated from those liabilities like a Common Carrier should be...but they get to exclude users, which a Common Carrier normally can't do.

I figure social network sites should have a choice: Either be a "Common Carrier," or be a "Walled Garden" where you can filter content and customers...but be forewarned: If you're the latter, you lose immunity if criminal (or civilly-liable) content arises and you don't exclude it. With a "Common Carrier," if criminal content is published, only the user that published it has legal exposure...but you have to do business with all comers.

Alternatively (and I'm not sure why I didn't think of this sooner) they could be required to all be "Common Carriers," but, as a value add, provide topical filters that are deeply customizable by the users (and where any filter requested by enough users must get built). In this way, everybody could be on the same Twitter but never see what they don't want to see: A sort of user-defined shadowbanning of undesired content. That sounds cool...and it sounds do-able since "Parental Controls" already function similarly. The only part I'm unsure of is how it might be affected by law, since it confuses the legal distinction between "Common Carrier" and "Walled Garden."

Hmm. Tricky.
 
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I believe that anyone should be allowed to speak their mind 100% as long as you're not harming others. Can't shout "fire" in a movie theater, ect. I think people are entitled to have racist/crazy/awful views but they are not entitled to their opinions being respected or listened to. That's not to say that you can't voice those opinions. If that were true, you'd be thrown in jail for just saying the wrong things.
Agreed. I wasn't sure what you meant by "shutting down". Unfortunately, some people can't accept free speech when it doesn't agree with their views. The consequences of this mentality that I see on the news each night scare me. Large companies, private organizations, small businesses, and single individuals and their property are being targeted, vandalized, harassed, fired, slandered, even beaten and killed by other organizations or individuals because of this insanity. And the media fans the flames.
 
@steadystate:Right now, the social networking sites are sometimes acting like "Common Carriers" (for the purpose of immunity from lawsuits) but other times acting like content-curators/publishers (for the purposes of excluding some content and including other content). Technically they should be legally required to choose one or the other...but it's been really easy for them to have the best of both worlds. They have deep pockets and a lot of politicians don't want to run afoul of Google's search engine algorithm.
Yep.

I also want to say that I'm gratified (and amazed) that this hasn't degenerated into a locked thread (so far). I wish the rest of the world was as well-behaved and thoughtful. Thank you, everyone.
 
As soon as speech can't compete in the marketplace of ideas because it upsets people, you kill art, comedy, drama, and even music and history.

Something is going to upset someone. Some people are going to misunderstand irony, satire, and shock, or even historical perspective.

Adjectives are going to exclude people that have a characteristic from those that don't have a characteristic, that doesn't make either state superior or inferior, it's just everything in life is not homogeneous.

One person's racist view of a comment is another person's Eddie Murphy/Mel Brooks/Dave Chapelle skit.

There's a reason why societies with free speech thrive and those with no free speech become like pressure cookers with no venting and figuratively cook their artists or make them bland.
 
Something is going to upset someone. Some people are going to misunderstand irony, satire, and shock, or even historical perspective.

One person's racist view of a comment is another person's Eddie Murphy/Mel Brooks/Dave Chapelle skit.
Some people are quite solidly committed to misunderstanding things that are contrary to their opinions, and have very little sense of humor.... :)
 
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