Y u no thomann?

[Muad'zin]

Most goes to the EUSSR-taxes (21% here)....

I did the math on getting another XL+ when they did the big pricedrop sale prior to the release of the III. Even including taxes I'd still save hundreds of euro's ordering directly from FAS in the US. G66 does take a markup as well. Nothing wrong with them making a buck, they are a business after all. But they're just a business with no competition whatsoever. Which is basically a monopoly. And that I don't like.

When I was still building pedals from Buildyourownclone I couldn't order from them directly as well, I had to order from European dealers as well. The biggest difference though was dealers as in plural. I ended up ordering from a UK dealer as that was cheaper then ordering from a Dutch dealer. You gotta love competition.

Why would FAS need to keep prices down? They can't supply enough units to meet demand (except via wait lists, etc.). Ever looked at prices being HIGHER than retail on evil-Bay or Reverb?

Except FAS does offer discounts to their customers. They do it all the time. But only to their North American ones. The rest can take a hike. That doesn't feel nice, or make me feel beloved.

YOU want to get it from the cheapest source. Cool! Who doesn't want that? Don't we all??
Right now the cheapest in Europe is G66.

No, they are the only dealer. That's not cheapest, that's a monopoly. Would you be happy if you could only get internet from one provider? If there was only a single supermarket chain? Competition is good. No competition is bad.

FAS has never (during my 10+ yr assoc. with them) bowed to customer demand(s).
I don't expect to see that change any time soon.

You make it sound like customer demands are a bad thing. You know what sets apart good companies from bad companies? The latter don't listen to their customers. There is of course a huge difference between I DEMAND LOWER PRICES or I DEMAND AMP X OR STOMPBOX Y IN THE NEXT FIRMWARE UPGRADE versus, you know, FAS, it might be a good idea if you did X, or added feature Y to your product. I daresay that by listening to what consumers wanted, a modeler that unlike those of Line 6 was actually good, FAS got where it is in the first place.

Shipping from China to the US or EU is no difference in price.

Chinese businesses takes advantage though of unfair government subsidies. For them shipping abroad is free. And Chinese companies know no morals when it comes to shipping. They'll list a lower value to deceive customs if you ask for it. Or just do it anyway. That way US and EU customs don't know how much to tax you.

I understand the VAT in the US depends on the state you're in and is lower than the european avg. Now customs duty is funny: isn't there a +25% for a lot of things coming from China to the US ?

I reckon that if you're not a consumer, but a business, there are probably legal loopholes around those tariffs. The point is to stop American consumers from buying Chinese goods, not to punish American business from importing the goods they make in China. That wouldn't go down well with corporate sponsors in Washington. And if you want to get re-elected you don't mess with your financial contributors.

I understand there cannot be the same price in the US and the EU but I don't get why it has to be that much higher even if I throw in 2 years of warranty EU customers get from G66. This is where competition would tell what the real price of a unit could be.

I bought a 2nd hand XL via Ebay from the US once, the customs duties came down to $400. So that would mean $500 or more is the markup G66 puts on their units. Probably even more since companies don't have to pay VAT. Only consumers have to do so. And companies often get lower rates for a lot of things as well.

 

[s0c9]

Except FAS does offer discounts to their customers. They do it all the time. But only to their North American ones. The rest can take a hike. That doesn't feel nice, or make me feel beloved.

How many other "vendors" offer worldwide discounts? For example, I can get ANY Samsung or Huawei phone FAR cheaper overseas than in the US. Why is that? Why should FAS be any different? Perhaps their discounts are for US-based customers because that's where the inventory is?

No, they are the only dealer. That's not cheapest, that's a monopoly. Would you be happy if you could only get internet from one provider? If there was only a single supermarket chain? Competition is good. No competition is bad.

Whether you realize it or not, that also makes them the cheapest. There is no competition for the Axe.
.

You make it sound like customer demands are a bad thing. You know what sets apart good companies from bad companies? The latter don't listen to their customers. There is of course a huge difference between I DEMAND LOWER PRICES or I DEMAND AMP X OR STOMPBOX Y IN THE NEXT FIRMWARE UPGRADE versus, you know, FAS, it might be a good idea if you did X, or added feature Y to your product. I daresay that by listening to what consumers wanted, a modeler that unlike those of Line 6 was actually good, FAS got where it is in the first place.

How many firmware upgrades did you get for free (if they can even be upgraded) for other music related devices.. I'm still waiting for some L6 promised upgrades, 6 yrs AFTER the product was discontinued. You need to put this in perspective.

And.. I'm out on this discussion. It's going nowhere.

 

[lqdsnddist]

Buying products from an American company if your in America is cheaper than buying them if your in another country. That is generally how it works....

I bought a Laney amp before, direct from the UK, and it ended up costing me a lot to purchase it, as I’m in the US, than same amp would of cost me if I lived in the UK, even with VAT etc. again, generally how it works.

Good for Americans FAS is located in New Hampshire, bad for the EU etc.

If Cliff moves the company to Germany etc, EU could likely see lower prices and American buyers would probably pay more, just how it works

 

[Diego]

if I throw in 2 years of warranty EU customers get from G66

G66 offers 3 years warranty, just to be clear

 

[ChristThePhone]

G66 offers 3 years warranty, just to be clear

Thanks, Diego. I stand corrected.

 

[Ole]

I clearly have a dog in this fight, so I will be brief and then but out again.
The price you pay in EU is the same you would pay if you bought it directly from Fractal and imported it into EU.
You have to add the 3 years warranty, shipping, customs fee and then 19% VAT of the entire amount. Anything ells is illegal.
If you have a registered company, you can ofcourse buy without VAT also from G66.

 

[bradlake]

I think that part of Cliff’s original concept for marketing FAS was to deal with companies with similar philosphy of personal service ...I haven’t had any business dealing with G66 as a usa guy , but their reputation here is impeccable, once you understand the vagaries of international pricing , and having met these folk at AxeFest this spring, I can attest they are very cool and decent people who dig Fractal as much as anyone......

 

[Sustainerplayer]

Of course, since you'd be paying yourself all the additional taxes and fees that G66 fronts... unless you buy one in the US while on a trip and take it home with the rest of your souvenirs. You wouldn't be the first and you'd only be out of the warranty.

Like "a trip" to the US is cheap?

Next thing. I don't know where you live. But here in DK you can only bring in goods for a maximum of $490 from countries from outside the EU without having to pay customs and VAT .

So overall a really bad plan you have there.

 

[Clockwork Creep]

Like "a trip" to the US is cheap?

It isn't. But if you are going there anyway, then you might as well buy a fractal unit there, cause it's a lot cheaper.

Next thing. I don't know where you live. But here in DK you can only bring in goods for a maximum of $490 from countries from outside the EU without having to pay customs and VAT .

So overall a really bad plan you have there.

Seriously?
Do they, like, explore your travel bag and ask you whether you bought any of those things in US and calculated how much you spent? Otherwise, how would they know? That seems intrusive.

I actually bought my Axe FX 2 from a person that traveled US/EU and brought some units.
Got a good deal. So yeah, this plan actually works.

 

[Sustainerplayer]

Seriously?
Do they, like, explore your travel bag and ask you whether you bought any of those things in US and calculated how much you spent? Otherwise, how would they know? That seems intrusive.

Intrusive? That's the job of a custom officer.

In an airport you can choose to leave through the "nothing to declare" gate or else you can of course choose to declare the goods you have bought. If you don't declare goods you have bought you are committing a crime.

You can be picked for inspection by the customs officers (I guess that works the same in any airport all over the world). If they find undeclared goods - like an Axe III - you will normally be issued a fine on twice the amount of the custom taxes and VAT - and you still have to pay the original custom taxes and VAT.

I actually bought my Axe FX 2 from a person that traveled US/EU and brought some units.
Got a good deal. So yeah, this plan actually works.

Seriously? So the person you know are a smugler and you are buying contrabande?

I would call that even a worse plan.

Maybe you should check up on the rules of your country?

 

[Clockwork Creep]

If they find undeclared goods - like an Axe III ...

How could they possibly accuse you of buying the Axe 3 in USA?
How is it different than a personal item you picked to bring with you, such as your phone or a laptop, or an item that a relative in the US just gifted to you for a birthday, or gave you back after borrowing it?
These laws make little sense to me.

 

[yek]

How could they possibly accuse you of buying the Axe 3 in USA?
How is it different than a personal item you picked to bring with you, such as your phone or a laptop, or an item that a relative in the US just gifted to you for a birthday, or gave you back after borrowing it?
These laws make little sense to me.

You really need to read up on import rules.

 

[NaN]

How could they possibly accuse you of buying the Axe 3 in USA?
How is it different than a personal item you picked to bring with you, such as your phone or a laptop, or an item that a relative in the US just gifted to you for a birthday, or gave you back after borrowing it?
These laws make little sense to me.

They can ask you for a receipt so you can proof that your phone/laptop for example isn't bought in the US. There is even a special customs app where you can scan in all your receipts or other documents that proof that you bought tradeable stuff at home. If you don't they can do whatever they seem fit. Maybe you get away with it, maybe not. It's a gamble at that point.

 

[Clockwork Creep]

They can ask you for a receipt so you can proof that your phone/laptop for example isn't bought in the US. There is even a special customs app where you can scan in all your receipts or other documents that proof that you bought tradeable stuff at home. If you don't they can do whatever they seem fit. Maybe you get away with it, maybe not. It's a gamble at that point.

Thank you for the info.
I never went outside of EU, and only flew a plane once with no hickups at all.

Why would they expect you to carry a receipt for a thing you have, just because you have it?

Let's say, you fly with a guitar you got from your dad or something.
Must you also keep and carry a receipt for that guitar with yourself... forever? I never keep receipts for things I buy. I can probably get back to receipts from thomman or ebay, but that's it.... What if it's a thing you bought second hand, from another person directly?...
Why and how would you have a receipt for it? Can they literally fine you simply for having a guitar, and not being able to prove that you didn't buy it in the US?

 

[NaN]

Why would they expect you to carry a receipt for a thing you have, just because you have it?

It will make traveling more pleasant and comfortable for you. No nasty questions, delays and the anxiety of getting a ticket in the worst scenario. It was easy to proof you had the item before you went on the trip. Make a photo of it beforehand and timestamp it in someway. It is not so easy to proof it afterwards. Especially if you carry it in a brand new box/bag and the thing has no visible scratches or wear and has a sticker made in the USA on it

 

[Kamil Kisiel]

Thank you for the info.
I never went outside of EU, and only flew a plane once with no hickups at all.

Why would they expect you to carry a receipt for a thing you have, just because you have it?

Let's say, you fly with a guitar you got from your dad or something.
Must you also keep and carry a receipt for that guitar with yourself... forever? I never keep receipts for things I buy. I can probably get back to receipts from thomman or ebay, but that's it.... What if it's a thing you bought second hand, from another person directly?...
Why and how would you have a receipt for it? Can they literally fine you simply for having a guitar, and not being able to prove that you didn't buy it in the US?

Yes they can, in pretty much any country that I know. If you are travelling with an item of non-trivial value, and you can't prove that you didn't buy it abroad, you can get charged import fees and taxes.

For a lot of common items like laptops, cameras, etc, they usually don't check because a lot of travellers will be in possession of those and it would be a huge waste of time for little benefit. But if you are carrying something like a music instrument, unusual electronics, antiques, fancy jewellery, large sums of cash, etc then you need to be able to prove that you are not importing those into the country or else you need to pay the import fees.

 

[Jimmytwotimes]

Yes they can, in pretty much any country that I know. If you are travelling with an item of non-trivial value, and you can't prove that you didn't buy it abroad, you can get charged import fees and taxes.

For a lot of common items like laptops, cameras, etc, they usually don't check because a lot of travellers will be in possession of those and it would be a huge waste of time for little benefit. But if you are carrying something like a music instrument, unusual electronics, antiques, fancy jewellery, large sums of cash, etc then you need to be able to prove that you are not importing those into the country or else you need to pay the import fees.

correct - I've traveled all over the world - every place requires you to declare items you purchase - especially expensive ones. Sure you can try to lie on the form and to customs agents - but good luck when they call your bluff ! I've seen it happen !

 

[Kamil Kisiel]

correct - I've traveled all over the world - every place requires you to declare items you purchase - especially expensive ones. Sure you can try to lie on the form and to customs agents - but good luck when they call your bluff ! I've seen it happen !

Me too. I've been to a few tradeshows over the years and since we are in Canada we always have to fill out a bunch of paperwork for our goods both when exiting and entering each country, so I have to visit customs offices at airports 4 times on every trip. Last time we were coming back into Vancouver there were some other people in the customs office who had tried to get a bunch of expensive camera gear and other items that were likely purchased in Asia across the border without declaring them. They were refusing to pay the fine because they claimed they didn't need to, and then because they didn't have the money, and the customs office was threatening to have them forfeit the good until they could come up with proof or cash.. definitely not the kind of situation you want to be in. Customs / border issues are no joke, you can be held at the border, or denied entry, etc. Also most people don't take into account the fact that if you are trying to enter another country which is not your own you may have fewer or even no rights compared to the average person.

 

[Clockwork Creep]

Thanks yall for the info.
I had no idea of any of this.

 

[Kamil Kisiel]

Yes I meant just having to declare them, no import fees. If you try to pass through customs here without declaring you are carrying more than $10000 then you are going to have a very bad time.