X32 with QSC KW181 ~ KW153 Routing Question

mwd

mwd

Power User
Wanted to call on some of my Fractalites for some advice. I got my recommendations to buy an X32 Rack here as well as advice that steered me towards the QSC gear. Thank you.

Now it's all hear and I'm going to plug it in tomorrow night, for the first time, with this theory and some questions.

On the X32 I am running:
Out 1/2 to Matrix 1 for the subs in mono.
Out 2/3 to Matrix's 3/4 (linked) for stereo tops.
Out 4/5 to Matrix's 5/6 (linked) for stereo IEMs.

We are a hybrid band, 2 piece with backing track, and play in stereo both to mains and IEM's. So, in other words, we're not 'normal'.

Here are my questions.
1. Should I run the subs in mono as planned? I've always heard it's better and there was no point in running them in stereo.
2. Should I set a crossover point in the X32 or rely on the QSC system to figure that out?

Any suggestions, advice, concepts welcome. Thanks.
 
Hi Mwd,

1 - You can run them in mono with no discernible issues unless you're crossing over very high (you wont be :))
2 - IMHO you'd be better off using the QSC system for crossover. I say that because it's what it was designed for and will therefore be appropriate for the system. While the X32 crossover capability is a hand addition, it'd certainly require more setup to get it right with no real advantage.

Thanks
Pauly
 
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I would keep the Subs mono.
I personally use the Xover in the Xrack, even when using powered speakers with build it Xovers.
I'm not against using the built in Xover in a powered speaker, but sometimes the low cut isn't in the perfect spot (on the tops).
I haven't used the KW153 (actually, does that have a built in Xover?)...but with my HPR122i's, I like the cut at about 90 (and QSC cuts at 100 if I remember correctly).
I like to get out in front of the System and play with the Xover a bit before I settle on the settings that QSC built into the box.
The reason (at least with the HPR's) is that the low cut is meant for when you are using as a Monitor (not necessary as a FOH top with Subs).
Another example is some RCF subs I have that automatically Xover at 120htz. I like the better at 100htz, so I do that with my Xrack. At 120htz, they will make a knock/honk at loud volumes (sorry, no other way to describe it).
Point is....I like control, just in case the manufacturer didn't set the Xover at the right place.
If you're not comfortable doing this, then just set up with build in Xovers and see how it sounds to you.
If you run a CD and it sounds excellent....then you're good to go.

I know you're using all QSC gear and hopefully they are Xover'd to pair those specific tops with those subs. I would read up to make sure.
As another example....if I use my RCF subs (with the built in Xover at 120) and my QSC tops (with build in Xover at 100), then I have a gap....
 
I use the same system except I have KW122's. Definitely use the x32 for the cross over. You will probably cross over lower than you think. I cross over at like 60 hz or something like that; really low. Try it, all you really want the subs for is basically the lowest bass and kick. There may be some low tom stuff in there, but depending on the environment, things can get real boomy if you crossover to high. Let the mains handle the basic music and the subs handle the very lowest stuff. Of course it depends on what your goals are but for a clean pa try my suggestions.
 
Figured I would start out at around 79Hz and sweep a bit. I will dip down to 60, as you suggest and up to 90 as BBN recommends. Jay helped me immensely in the selection of this rig which I thank you again.

Then I'll try the internal settings and let the QSC decide but I'm kinda' not sure about this. The 153's just have a switch that you flip to tell it whether you are using subs or not. Ext/Norm/Deep

I am wondering when I control the crossover with the X32 whether I should put in on 'Ext' and tell the 153's that I'm using an external sub or just leave the switch on 'normal'.
 
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mwd said:
Figured I would start out at around 79Hz and sweep a bit. I will dip down to 60, as you suggest and up to 90 as BBN recommends. Jay helped me immensely in the selection of this rig which I thank you again.

Then I'll try the internal settings and let the QSC decide but I'm kinda' not sure about this. The 153's just have a switch that you flip to tell it whether you are using subs or not. Ext/Norm/Deep

I am wondering when I control the crossover with the X32 whether I should put in on 'Ext' and tell the 153's that I'm using an external sub or just leave the switch on 'normal'.
Click to expand...

For now, I would leave on the 'Normal' setting.

My wild guess would be to try crossing at 90 (that's usually where I start.
 
To the OP -
Did you change the default routing for the XLR outs?
By default, L/R out is Bus 7/8 - which would normally go to the DSP or crossover (if either are used) - controlled by single "master" fader.
My advice is keep it simple until you are FAMILIAR with the PA rig.

As a long time sound guy - I'd run 7/8 to tops (standard routing config) - as in stereo - then daisy-chain off the tops to the subs (I assume 2 subs) and use the built-in crossovers on the speakers. Keep it simple.
Complicated hookups are fine when they work, but if something isn't and it's 5 min before downbeat... you might be in trouble!

Plus, unless you PAN things in the PA (which I advise against for most situations), you're not really running stereo, but splitting a signal to one speaker or another. Other than keys, most inputs are single channel (drums, guitars, bass, vocals) and therefore "mono" inputs. Yes, they can be panned L/R, but ... (OT and another lengthy topic) <shrug>.
 
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Also, Create a simple preset (X32) as was advised above and save it as fallback.
Try out new routings, but if it fails, you can just switch to your safe preset in the X32.
 
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s0c9 I am with you on your advice for a normal gig or band but we're not. A good chunk of our sound is done in studio. We come out 2 piece primarily adding my guitar and female vocal to a backing track. We don't have a big stereo hole or the side sweep voids that a big venue would present as our gigs are relatively small. So far at least.

Our stereo images are not wide but they do exist. On a drum roll, for example, it might start a little right to a little left. When and if we run into a stereo image problem we have Plan B (narrowed spectrum) and C (mono) alternatives.

I did change the routing. I see Mains 7/8 but was under the assumption on the X32 that routing was wide open. I'll be hooking up tonight but I'm thinking I still have the same use of the Master fader as I would using 7/8 but if any of you guys see an obvious quirk in routing please let me know. Preferrably before I plug this thing in....lol.
 
I am assuming the op will set up and test his configuration thoroughly before actual use. All the routing is internal to the board; you will need only one extra output to run stereo. Of course you should run your sub mono. If you don't want stereo, simply don't pan anything. It will work exactly like a mono set up. I personally use a separate crossover because the x32 didn't have the crossover function when we first set it up (I don't think); ours is a permanent install. And, we plan on switching over to the x32 crossovers asap. Less equipment to get the job done is best imho. I have never used a drive rack so I can't speak to that. I guess if your going to be in different venues it might help mitigate the room differences.

I have found that on my kw122's even with the sub mode engaged, I still get sound below 100hz. That is exactly why we went with an out board cross over. There were simply too many overlapping frequencies with the built in qsc cross overs. We get much better control, punchy but not muddy bass. You feel it and avoid room nodes that can over power the rest of your sound.

Let us know how it works out for you.
 
Holy crap on a cracker these sound good. X32 routing went flawlessly. Started out just letting the QSC's handle crossover and it does sound nice. Will experiment with X32 as crossover during the week.

Trying to figure out the proper course for gain staging. Due to how beastly these are I am having to trim most of the output in our rehearsal area. Wondering the best and safest place to do so. At the speaker trim, matrix sliders or Master fader? Accidentally bouncing a slider on an iPad app would be devastating.

I figure trimming at the speaker would be safest but the trim knobs are detented and there is a heck of a jump between detents. So I wound up setting the speakers at infinity and the main L/R master volume at infinity and bled the matrix faders to -30db resulting in about a 90 to 95 db SPL. Then fine tuned with the master.

Any ideas or recommendations on the gain staging flow chart?
 
mwd said:
I figure trimming at the speaker would be safest but the trim knobs are detented and there is a heck of a jump between detents. So I wound up setting the speakers at infinity and the main L/R master volume at infinity and bled the matrix faders to -30db resulting in about a 90 to 95 db SPL. Then fine tuned with the master.

Any ideas or recommendations on the gain staging flow chart?
Click to expand...
The speakers should be gain staged at detente/0dB setting. That should coincide with 0 on the master fader on the rack - as in max volume.
There are [obviously] all kinds of level adjustments one can use between the X32 Rack master and the speakers.
Finding a balance for your venues will be the challenge, but if your input channel level is -3dB, master is set to 0 and speaker level is set at 0, then you should be gain staged correctly.
That may be way too loud for you.
But.. again, I would keep it simple and only trim the speaker levels - leaving the rest of the gain staging as is.
IOW - trim back speakers to about 75% and see if that works. Too hot? Back em down to 50%
If still too loud back off some more until you are happy.
Once you start trimming levels at various stages and you have an issue, you'll not be able to remember what should be set where.. and have diagnosis issues.
Keep it simple.. - especially if there's a chance, someone else (with an FOG background?) steps in to help.. they'll not be aware of how you have levels set and may decide to crank the master.. .and.. well you get my drift!
 
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