Wow! Never seen so much Whining and Crying. Lets get a grip on this!

LMO said:
4. If you're too young to remember, look up what happened to the Osborne Computer company.
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Who can remember NeXT Computer? It was the PC company Steve Jobs founded when he left Apple in 1985 and who's operating system later became Mac OS X.
In the early 1990s they were building very powerful and beautifully black workstation computers that were also very expensive.

I was working for the biggest Austrian Apple dealer at the time and we became NeXT distributor for Austria, building a large training center, sales challenges, etc.
3 months(!) after finishing all the preparations for the NeXT distribution we got a fax(!) from NeXT saying "Sorry, we are leaving the hardware business. We are focusing on software development for the education channel".
This destroyed the company I was working for :(

Steve-Jobs-and-next-computer.jpg
 
LMO said:
Probably these points have been made already (some by me), but perhaps they bear repeating. Caveat: these are my opinions.
1. Don't argue logic when someone is having an emotional response. Given a little space people will probably come to terms with this stuff, but if you insist on engaging in endless arguments, well this forum will start to resemble too many others.
2. I took the trouble to do an exhaustive search for one popular 'quote.' I know the origin, and saw how it got twisted to mean something entirely different. At least some of what people thought they knew was just plain wrong.
3. Newbies don't know who is who on a forum. I was one just a few months ago, and when I, like many others, asked about the prospect for a new model coming out soon... I got what appeared to be an informed answer. It wasn't. See #2.
4. If you're too young to remember, look up what happened to the Osborne Computer company.
5. By all appearances FAS is a small company that is not exactly taking excessive profits. In such a situation there isn't a lot of room to let the cash flow dry up for months prior to announcing a new product. See #4.
6. Anybody who thinks they have a legitimate grievance should contact Cliff and see what can be worked out privately. FAS is not exactly a faceless corporate behemoth.

This is one of those posts that I write out just to test my thought process, and then never submit. Whoops. ;)
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Well at the same time, you have to admit that a lot of people being called liars were justified in that 8 month old post. Also, you seem to take the stance that everyone is somehow reading all of this wrong. I do not think that is the case.

But I DO think SOMETHING has happened. I still do not believe that Cliff is a monster, but what a lot of people were saying about being told no new product was in the works, was true.

Now again, we do not know all the details of WHY this was posted the way it was. But it does not mean that these people who wonder about this, are crazy as some others have tried to paint them.

All I am saying is that a lot of people on this board have had legitimate questions. They should NOT be treated as liars, misunderstanding posts or anything deragatory. They have just as much a right to their views as you do yours.

And weather or not you want to admit it, that post does raise some concerns for some people on the question of WHEN the axe fx II was being built . But I still do not think Cliff is a monster and deserves to be sued. I do think there are questions people have raised that need to be answered.

Suggesting they must have misunderstood it all , is a bit unfair.
 
I don't really like this whole line of thought, the idea of Cliff or Fractal being involved in some conspiracy of lying about the product for some malicious reason worthy of a lawsuit. I say this as a guy who's bummed to have fallen into bad timing of just buying my Ultra two months ago. I haven't seen anything in my limited time here to make me suspect this kinda foul play. All I've got to go on is my gut and very little empirical evidence, but what I believe is that Cliff is all about making an awesome product, that he's passionate about that, and not that he's some evil dick out to con anyone. I just don't see it. It doesn't fit, for me. What *does* fit is that he's breaking ground yet again, he's excited about it, and that the way they rolled it out could have been done in a way that wouldn't have left many recent purchasers feeling let down. But that's not evil dick malice kinda stuff, that's a small business run like its small staff decides to run it in the way they think makes the most sense for them. And maybe they missed the mark a little here with regard to the feelings of those of us who just made a big plunge at the wrong time. But that's nothing like an evil conspiracy. Y'know? Maybe email exchanges will come to light that change how this all appears to me, but I sure as hell hope not, cause I want to see Fractal succeed as much as possible, and want to believe in them as a company and in Cliff as an individual in particular. The worst thing to see happen to a cool small company like this is for stupid business related junk get in the way of the envelope-pushing product they offer. Like I said in another thread, I hate what happened to Pete Traynor who is more or less my number one gear-related hero. I'd like to hold Cliff in that same regard, and would like to see things work out awesome for him. So I'm crossing my fingers that this conspiracy allegation stuff all turns out to be horseshit.
 
TimH said:
your post is irrelevant. I bought an Ultra used for roughly new price about 10 days ago. It is now worth $300-400 less. I would be happy saving $400 today OR having the chance to add $200 to my purchase price and get the new model. Either way I've lost BIG time due to what I think is selfish and business practices...so I'll complain. Thanks.
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this is a joke, right?
 
Scott said:
I don't really like this whole line of thought, the idea of Cliff or Fractal being involved in some conspiracy of lying about the product for some malicious reason worthy of a lawsuit. I say this as a guy who's bummed to have fallen into bad timing of just buying my Ultra two months ago. I haven't seen anything in my limited time here to make me suspect this kinda foul play. All I've got to go on is my gut and very little empirical evidence, but what I believe is that Cliff is all about making an awesome product, that he's passionate about that, and not that he's some evil dick out to con anyone. I just don't see it. It doesn't fit, for me. What *does* fit is that he's breaking ground yet again, he's excited about it, and that the way they rolled it out could have been done in a way that wouldn't have left many recent purchasers feeling let down. But that's not evil dick malice kinda stuff, that's a small business run like its small staff decides to run it in the way they think makes the most sense for them. And maybe they missed the mark a little here with regard to the feelings of those of us who just made a big plunge at the wrong time. But that's nothing like an evil conspiracy. Y'know? Maybe email exchanges will come to light that change how this all appears to me, but I sure as hell hope not, cause I want to see Fractal succeed as much as possible, and want to believe in them as a company and in Cliff as an individual in particular. The worst thing to see happen to a cool small company like this is for stupid business related junk get in the way of the envelope-pushing product they offer. Like I said in another thread, I hate what happened to Pete Traynor who is more or less my number one gear-related hero. I'd like to hold Cliff in that same regard, and would like to see things work out awesome for him. So I'm crossing my fingers that this conspiracy allegation stuff all turns out to be horseshit.
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Scott The TRUTH is that some people including myself were saying they remembered a post about there not being a new axe fx, I was basically asked if I could prove it and I could not find the post but someone else did. So that basically shut the mouths of the doubters.

Meanwhile people started saying it was a lie before it came out. But it turned OUT ....TO BE TRUE!

And you can think what you want, but this is NOT a "conspiracy theory"... at least by me. THEY ARE LEGITIMATE QUESTIONS! I have stated what I will do and that is wait a year and get an axe fx II then. So far that has not changed. Why would it? No one as far as I know is wanting cliff to fail, but it does raise some questions. Maybe YOU don't want an answer, but others might!

But lets be absolutely clear about something. You seem to think people asking questions about when the axe fx II was made are starting a "conspiracy theory"! Are you really so sensitive that you cannot handle the truth? This is NO CONSPIRACY THEORY! It is only questions asked by people that are wondering if they were lied to when they asked about a new product.

You seem to think that if this answer is "yes".... it must somehow spell the end of Fractal Audio....I don't agree.

But it DOES make people wonder when you have an 8 month old post saying Cliff is not working on anything and THEN you have a web page for the new axe fx saying it has been under development for THREE YEARS!

Think what the hell you want but 2 and 2 do not equal 5!

Regardless, I still think the axe fx is the best product bar none and Cliff has made the company a success...so please don't get all bent out of shape when someone asks questions that you may not like.
 
webe123 said:
Scott The TRUTH is that some people including myself were saying they remembered a post about there not being a new axe fx, I was basically asked if I could prove it and I could not find the post but someone else did. So that basically shut the mouths of the doubters.

Meanwhile people started saying it was a lie before it came out. But it turned OUT ....TO BE TRUE!

And you can think what you want, but this is NOT a "conspiracy theory"... at least by me. THEY ARE LEGITIMATE QUESTIONS! I have stated what I will do and that is wait a year and get an axe fx II then. So far that has not changed. Why would it? No one as far as I know is wanting cliff to fail, but it does raise some questions. Maybe YOU don't want an answer, but others might!

But lets be absolutely clear about something. You seem to think people asking questions about when the axe fx II was made are starting a "conspiracy theory"! Are you really so sensitive that you cannot handle the truth? This is NO CONSPIRACY THEORY! It is only questions asked by people that are wondering if they were lied to when they asked about a new product.

You seem to think that if this answer is "yes".... it must somehow spell the end of Fractal Audio....I don't agree.

But it DOES make people wonder when you have an 8 month old post saying Cliff is not working on anything and THEN you have a web page for the new axe fx saying it has been under development for THREE YEARS!

Think what the hell you want but 2 and 2 do not equal 5!

Regardless, I still think the axe fx is the best product bar none and Cliff has made the company a success...so please don't get all bent out of shape when someone asks questions that you may not like.
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From what I understand of the situation, Cliff had mentioned ahead of time about stuff he was working on in the past (MFC for example). This led to nothing but headaches from all the bitching and moaning about the delays in releasing the product in question. He learned from this mistake as we all probably would. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. I have a feeling that if he wasn't so in love with the product, he might just throw up his hands and let us fend for ourselves. Do we want that?

Didn't think so.
 
webe123, you're not asking questions, you're all but drawing conclusions. And you're doing so without sufficient information. I regret posting that link because it seems to have fueled this even more. Despite your objections, your tone conveys an air of strong suspicion and yes, a bit of conspiracy.
 
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byce_pryah said:
From what I understand of the situation, Cliff had mentioned ahead of time about stuff he was working on in the past (MFC for example). This led to nothing but headaches from all the bitching and moaning about the delays in releasing the product in question. He learned from this mistake as we all probably would. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. I have a feeling that if he wasn't so in love with the product, he might just throw up his hands and let us fend for ourselves. Do we want that?
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Well as I said there may be a reason he did lie.

But the way some people act, its as though you accused Cliff of Murder if you even question him. Sorry I don't go for that, never have, never will!

If people want to fanboy a product that is OK by me. But don't call me a liar or misunderstood when the facts themselves speak clearly enough. That is insulting to me and others here that had only legitimate questions.


youngmic said:
webe123, you're not asking questions, you're all but drawing conclusions. And you're doing so without sufficient information. I regret posting that link because it seems to have fueled this even more. Despite your objections, your tone conveys an air of strong suspicion and yes, a bit of conspiracy.
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Excuse me. POINT OUT EXACTLY WHERE I DREW A CONCLUSION! Point it out.

Now I have said time and again that I do not know the reasons WHY this happened and I have just as much a right to my opinion as you do yours, which is not fact, it is an opinion.

The questions I asked were legitimate. I did not accuse Cliff of anything. Sorry, if you do not like what I asked but that is life. I am not changing just because YOU don't like what I asked.

But if you want to believe that lie go right ahead. Because that is all it is.... a lie from you and I am calling you on it.

Frankly, I think people like you are so scared of the truth you seem to want to attack anyone that disagrees with your way of thinking.
 
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Oh webe123 don't get me wrong. I would never say "don't ask questions" and I certainly don't think that asking questions equals conspiracy. I didn't say people who seek the truth are conspiracy theorists, I said that people are suggesting that Fractal/Cliff were acting in a conspiratorial way, to con people into buying Ultras by lying about the existence of a new unit. This post from 8 months ago and the statement about "3 years R&D" aren't evidence of any foul play, to me. For example, I've been designing a tube amp and an all-tube preamp/effects chain stompbox for a good three years. I've drawn up schematics, messed around with designs, even bought tubes and transformers for prototyping. Does that mean if someone asked me if I had the production of a new tube amp and stompbox on the horizon I would have to say "yes"? I don't think so. But if I had plans that went so far as completed prototypes for proof of concept and beta testing, and was making plans for purchasing materials for actual manufacture of units for sale, then I would surely have to reply "yes" or I'd be lying. I have no idea what the timing is for the AxeFx II, but 8 months is a loooong time ago for something like this, I mean, before suggesting that the 8-month-old post means something, I'd say it's worthwhile to look at the components used in the new box and see if they all even existed 8 months ago. Y'know?

So ask questions, for sure. But don't do it with a severe bias and an agenda. Do it to know the truth, no problem. And be careful with language while you search for the truth, lest you make false accusations which are very much not cool.

I hope that makes sense, and I'm not being taken the wrong way!
 
all this whining is actually hilarious to me.

what was cliff supposed to do, email everyone that just bought one or was about to buy one and warn them not to?

because I am pretty sure if there was a more subtle announcement of some sort stating that an axe fx II was "just in development", or whatever some people seem to have wanted, as opposed to it just "being released", that would have had pretty much the same reaction from everyone who is currently whining. and probably very similar effects to the value of the current models.

so who cares. stop bitching, new products are released! axe fx II is a great thing! blah blah blah secrecy secrecy. secrecy is what makes this company great in a sense, IMO it is cool not knowing exactly what/when to expect something but yet know that they do in fact listen to all of us users and take everything we say into consideration.

stick to the AMAZING old versions if you are so unhappy about there being something new when you didn't want there to be something new on a date that wasn't quite perfect for you.

selfish selfish humans. pretty sure cliff could charge $3000 and the lot of you would still pay for the axe fx's. just be happy with what you get, you aren't entitled to anything.
 
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@grantcooper, did you read my post on page 2? Post 18 in this thread? What is your criticism of what I suggested there? It certainly didn't involve emailing everyone or any other absurd straw man.
 
that wasn't directed at you specifically. solid post, valid points!

and no I didn't really read much specifics for anyones posts, so you could just as easily argue that my points are invalid I suppose. I don't research to the enth degree about who said what when, I just follow the products as best as I can.

it is just that when I see bitching and complaining I start power LOLing and wonder why people feel so entitled all the time.
 
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youngmic said:
And there's both the conclusion and accusation. Sigh. Apologies to all for my contribution to this.
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Neither you nor I know the reason to that post and 8 months is NOT to me, a very long time to make an axe fx 2. So why did he say that? The answer is that he may have lied to keep from going through the headcahe of telling everyone early and having them bug him.

So YOU have YOUR views and I have mine.

Sorry if you don't agree.
 
webe123 said:
Well as I said there may be a reason he did lie.

But the way some people act, its as though you accused Cliff of Murder if you even question him. Sorry I don't go for that, never have, never will!

If people want to fanboy a product that is OK by me. But don't call me a liar or misunderstood when the facts themselves speak clearly enough. That is insulting to me and others here that had only legitimate questions.




Excuse me. POINT OUT EXACTLY WHERE I DREW A CONCLUSION! Point it out.

Now I have said time and again that I do not know the reasons WHY this happened and I have just as much a right to my opinion as you do yours, which is not fact, it is an opinion.

The questions I asked were legitimate. I did not accuse Cliff of anything. Sorry, if you do not like what I asked but that is life. I am not changing just because YOU don't like what I asked.

But if you want to believe that lie go right ahead. Because that is all it is.... a lie from you and I am calling you on it.

Frankly, I think people like you are so scared of the truth you seem to want to attack anyone that disagrees with your way of thinking.
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Sorry to simplify things here but you need to make a decision ..... shit or get off the pot. Sue, don't sue ... bitch, don't bitch. Whatever man. Do what you gotta do. What difference does it make? This is wasted energy really. Maybe if you just argue your point and threaten to hold your breath until we all agree, you might be satiated. I say go for it bro. May the schwartz be with you.
 
byce_pryah said:
Sorry to simplify things here but you need to make a decision ..... shit or get off the pot. Sue, don't sue ... bitch, don't bitch. Whatever man. Do what you gotta do. What difference does it make? This is wasted energy really. Maybe if you just argue your point and threaten to hold your breath until we all agree, you might be satiated. I say go for it bro. May the schwartz be with you.
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Give me a break.

I was never the one that said I was going to sue! You need to learn how to read. If you would learn you would have seen that I thought suing him was stupid.

Nevertheless think of me as an asshole all you want, I simply do not agree with your views.

Why even bother to post if my posting bugs you so much? I guess you just think I am somehow Cliffs enemy because I was wondering about a post he made. It is you who needs to get off the pot!
 
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