Would it be too much to ask to include working accessories?

[or8ital]

I've bought an Ultra and MFC in the last two weeks totally $2819.79. Would it be too much to ask to have Fractal start including working accessories with it? Its a pain to have to go through a trial and error process to find the necessary accessories to work with the products. I bought a Midi USB Interface (Motu). It didn't work. I had to get a different one (MidiSport). I get the MFC, bought a midi cable for it. It didn't work, had to buy a different one.

I don't care if I have to pay more for them. Its the trial and error thats frustrating! I gotta imagine supporting all these different accessories has to be a nightmare as well!

 

[s0c9]

Re: Would it be too much to ask to include working accessori

I gotta imagine supporting all these different accessories has to be a nightmare as well!

I think you answered your own question
If FAS had to test with every interface/device on every OS out there, product development would be cost prohibitive, and take many years, mucho $$.
As long as they stick to (MIDI) specs, I doubt they can do much more that some small personal device testing. Besides, you're essentially doing the testing for them.. for free <kidding>!

 

[or8ital]

Re: Would it be too much to ask to include working accessori

I dunno, a midi cable between a Multi-Effects unit they make and a pedal they make seems like few variables.

 

[rickboot]

Re: Would it be too much to ask to include working accessori

I think you should be asking if it would be too much for MIDI interface makers to make hardware and drivers that work. All will work with simple, slow data communications but some will choke and drop data when doing bulk data transfers.

There have been unofficial lists of working accessories. What might help newcomers is an official list included in Fractal documentation and the website.

 

[pholklore]

Re: Would it be too much to ask to include working accessori

As long as they stick to (MIDI) specs, I doubt they can do much more that some small personal device testing. Besides, you're essentially doing the testing for them.. for free <kidding>!

I think you should be asking if it would be too much for MIDI interface makers to make hardware and drivers that work. All will work with simple, slow data communications but some will choke and drop data when doing bulk data transfers.

This has been bugging me for a while. Most of the data that is sent from/to the device is wrapped in sysex's. That is, the contents of the messages that are sent/pulled from the device are entirely up to Fractal. This is such a recurring problem (and yes, even the devices that supposedly work best fail a sysex transfer occasionally, such is the nature of MIDI. Whenever you find yourself in the need of a "refresh from hardware", the likely cause was a mistransfer.).

It would be entirely possibly, and IMO desirable, for Fractal to come up with a very simple
sysex-over-sysex encapsulating protocol that just split the large sysex's (presets, banks, etc.) in smaller chunks, and have the sender retry whenever the receiver says reports a chunk didn't come through okay. Of course, you'd retain the possibility of sending the whole large sysex's in one go, like today, for the case of when you only have unidirectional MIDI communication, and to retain support with sending sysex's from third party librarians (with time, midi-ox and others could gain support for such simple encapsulate/retry protocol).

It shouldn't take more than a couple of days to implement this in both Axe-Fx and Axe-Edit. I'd do this myself, if I had access to the sources.

 

[Rich G.]

Re: Would it be too much to ask to include working accessori

This has been bugging me for a while....

The underlying problem is the lack of a USB port in the Axe-FX. Most effects processors built within the last 5 years use a USB port for editor interface. 11Rack, GSP1101, GT-10 have USB ports. MIDI is just not good for large data transfers.

 

[electronpirate]

Re: Would it be too much to ask to include working accessori

Everyone has their own opinion on what is the 'best' one for their situation. This forum and the WIKI exist to help with the process, so I think it is alot to ask. One that might work with 70% of various operating systems (and LEVELS of that system), will not work with the other 30%. People would also complain that the cost of cables they already have are built into the unit cost.

Too many variables and I don't think Fractal should have to track that for us. On the other hand, many unnamed manufacturers make you purchase their proprietary cable at $45 replacement cost... Fractal is a small operation still, and they'd get bogged down in 'DOA' cables, 'I can't get it to work', and 'it died after 1 month' requests, etc.

It's not that tough to work this stuff out.

Ron

 

[MusicManJP6]

Re: Would it be too much to ask to include working accessori

Never had a problem with MIDI transfers with my AXE. My interfaces are a $5 USB-MIDI from eBay for the laptop (windows 7 ultimate) and a soundblaster audigy 2 zx platinum on the desktop. Both have never given me any trouble.

 

[or8ital]

Re: Would it be too much to ask to include working accessori

Everyone has their own opinion on what is the 'best' one for their situation. This forum and the WIKI exist to help with the process, so I think it is alot to ask. One that might work with 70% of various operating systems (and LEVELS of that system), will not work with the other 30%. People would also complain that the cost of cables they already have are built into the unit cost.

Too many variables and I don't think Fractal should have to track that for us. On the other hand, many unnamed manufacturers make you purchase their proprietary cable at $45 replacement cost... Fractal is a small operation still, and they'd get bogged down in 'DOA' cables, 'I can't get it to work', and 'it died after 1 month' requests, etc.

It's not that tough to work this stuff out.

Ron

The Wiki is worthless if the information isn't correct. For example I bought the Motu based on the info in the wiki, but that information was out of date. It worked with a prior version of the Editor but not the latest. It just needs to be something cheap like the post above. If someone chooses something else, then by all means experiment. But why should I have to go through a big trial and error process for something that needs to work with their products. The Midi interface I had worked fine with both MAC and Windows but not the editor. The midi cable did not work between two fractal products and nothing else in between.

 

[electronpirate]

Re: Would it be too much to ask to include working accessori

The Wiki is worthless if the information isn't correct. For example I bought the Motu based on the info in the wiki, but that information was out of date. It worked with a prior version of the Editor but not the latest. It just needs to be something cheap like the post above. If someone chooses something else, then by all means experiment. But why should I have to go through a big trial and error process for something that needs to work with their products. The Midi interface I had worked fine with both MAC and Windows but not the editor. The midi cable did not work between two fractal products and nothing else in between.

Well, I think we've worked out that the WIKI is not worthless. The WIKI is a living document, and now that you're part of the community, YOU can get on there and fix that.

Sorry you're having trouble, but in my opinion its STILL not Fractal's responsibility to make sure compatibility in between all existing MIDI interfaces, various cables, and operating systems. It's a huge job, and from what I see, most of the problems are with folks who have limited amounts of experience with MIDI (like me) who go through initial pain, but get it working. And also it looks like it's a small subset of the population, not some MIDI pandemic...

The editor, while nice, is also not a NECESSARY part of the unit.

Even if there was a cable that they supplied, there is no way to figure out whether it will work successfully with your particular hardware and software without massive testing. They can't even 'recommend' a cable, because then it becomes Fractal's responsibility to make it work with your 'stuff'.

This is all my opinion. You asked, and I disagreed.

Ron

 

[chris]

Re: Would it be too much to ask to include working accessori

i don't blame fractal audio for 3rd party hardware not working. fractal is not responsible for publishing and updating a list of other brand's gear that works.

it's like asking apple to provide a desk and chair that is the correct height for viewing and using their computers.

 

[LMO]

Re: Would it be too much to ask to include working accessori

...The editor, while nice, is also not a NECESSARY part of the unit...

As of 10.02 it appears that the editor is required for downloading to the unit, unless you want to patch syx files.

 

[or8ital]

Re: Would it be too much to ask to include working accessori

I think some of you are missing my original point. I don't want Fractal to have to support anything 3rd party. I want them to provide Fractal accessories that they do support that are their own and are known to work. I mean really, how hard would it be to provide a working midi cable with the MFC?

If the editor did not exist, I would not own an Axe Fx.

Also, a MIDI computer interface is necessary to own an MFC as it does not ship with working firmware. The only way to get the necessary firmware is via a MIDI interface.

 

[pholklore]

Re: Would it be too much to ask to include working accessori

This has been bugging me for a while....

The underlying problem is the lack of a USB port in the Axe-FX. Most effects processors built within the last 5 years use a USB port for editor interface. 11Rack, GSP1101, GT-10 have USB ports.

No, that's not the underlying problem.

This has been bugging me for a while....

MIDI is just not good for large data transfers.

Sorry, you're wrong. MIDI is as good for large data transfers as any other raw serial stream. E.g., it's as good as an RS232/serial link with parity off. It's just crazy to send large data transfers over MIDI (where the data itself needs to reach the other end complete) without some form of splitting the large messages in chunks and some form of NAK/retry mechanism. The fault it not in MIDI. It's in assuming an inherently unreliable transport gets your messages to the other end, always.

 

[pholklore]

Re: Would it be too much to ask to include working accessori

Never had a problem with MIDI transfers with my AXE. My interfaces are a $5 USB-MIDI from eBay for the laptop (windows 7 ultimate) and a soundblaster audigy 2 zx platinum on the desktop. Both have never given me any trouble.

Occasionally one sees problems like these http://www.fractalaudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=20169 even when using a "good" interface. I know I have. Most people will just hit "refresh from hardware", shrug, and not realize the fault is actually in the fact that Axe-Edit does not retry sending a sysex when Axe-Fx itself replied back "checksum error".

 

[pholklore]

Re: Would it be too much to ask to include working accessori

The Wiki is worthless if the information isn't correct. For example I bought the Motu based on the info in the wiki, but that information was out of date.

One can fix the wiki oneself, so that others don't trip on the same outdated info. It would be very appreciated if you fixed the outdated info you found.

 

[electronpirate]

Re: Would it be too much to ask to include working accessori

...The editor, while nice, is also not a NECESSARY part of the unit...

As of 10.02 it appears that the editor is required for downloading to the unit, unless you want to patch syx files.

Could be. In that case...rescind that statement...the Editor is necessary.

But I still don't believe it's Fractal's responsibility.

Don't hate the playa..hate the game.
R

 

[or8ital]

Re: Would it be too much to ask to include working accessori

The Wiki is worthless if the information isn't correct. For example I bought the Motu based on the info in the wiki, but that information was out of date.

One can fix the wiki oneself, so that others don't trip on the same outdated info. It would be very appreciated if you fixed the outdated info you found.

But the developer for the editor is working on a fix. I have no idea of knowing if / when it is fixed. That is the issue with user supported. No one knows what is "supposed" to work vs not. I work in development, I would never ask a user to develop release notes for me based on what they observe.

 

[pholklore]

Re: Would it be too much to ask to include working accessori

One can fix the wiki oneself, so that others don't trip on the same outdated info. It would be very appreciated if you fixed the outdated info you found.

But the developer for the editor is working on a fix. I have no idea of knowing if / when it is fixed. That is the issue with user supported. No one knows what is "supposed" to work vs not.

I have no idea what specific problem you're talking about, and how that relates to release notes. The wiki is not supported by fractal --- it's maintained by volunteers, AFAIK.

I work in development, I would never ask a user to develop release notes for me based on what they observe.

... thus this comparison makes no sense to me.

It's irrelevant when will a fix for whatever info you found will be available. You can fix the wiki _now_ stating exactly what you found. Just a note saying "warning, this appears to be outdated info, see this forum thread" or something of the sorts is already very helpful.

Anyway, this is derailing from the topic.

 

[or8ital]

Re: Would it be too much to ask to include working accessori

I think there is a time and place for a Wiki, but known bugs, compatible hardware, etc is not it (if the information is coming from a user community). Those need to be maintained by those developing the product as part of release notes. As a developer these would all be documented via a vigorous & proactive QA process with known variables. Not based on field observation after the fact.

Which goes back to the original point of this thread. To reduce the variables Fractal supported/approved accessories should be included with / or made available for the products they sell.