Wood & Guitar Tone

[Rex]

Who knew your guitars were Welsh?

 

[Ravdave]

Don't forget the bridge type and material, pickup positioning , string height, the nut type and material, the playing technique...picks used.....what part of the neck you strike the strings...what angle of pick attack....or fingernails....or fingers etc etc.......ad infinitum......(or ad nauseum depending on individual point of view no doubt). However the original post did not ask about other factors (which we we all know can significantly affect guitar tone, only about "body, neck and fingerboard wood". Many luthiers will state that the different woods used in the construction of an electric guitar can have a significant affect on the overall tonal frequencies and indeed mechanical resonances which will affect tonal frequencies eventually produced by the pickups. Surely we have no particular reason to "disbelieve" their experienced opinions.?

 

[BigD1977]

Don't forget the bridge type and material, pickup positioning , string height, the nut type and material, the playing technique...picks used.....what part of the neck you strike the strings...what angle of pick attack....or fingernails....or fingers etc etc.......ad infinitum......(or ad nauseum depending on individual point of view no doubt). However the original post did not ask about other factors (which we we all know can significantly affect guitar tone, only about "body, neck and fingerboard wood". Many luthiers will state that the different woods used in the construction of an electric guitar can have a significant affect on the overall tonal frequencies and indeed mechanical resonances which will affect tonal frequencies eventually produced by the pickups. Surely we have no particular reason to "disbelieve" their experienced opinions.?

I kinda agree with threads of this sort in an 'emperors new clothes' kind of way.

I also agree with everything else you've said.

 

[jeremypodom]

I'd say the materials, build, joints, and every detail can contribute to the way a string vibrates. That vibration determines the tone coming from the pickups. The wood itself does not add a "darker" or "lighter" tone, but it can change which harmonics resonate and sustain vs others.

 

[jeremypodom]

Basically, if a factor can contribute to the way the string is vibrating then it can make a difference. The other difference comes in relative to what part of the string the pickup is placed on. If you were to place a pickup in the dead center of the string (the twelfth fret) then the second harmonic would be drastically reduced, if it's even there at all, because that's the location of the anti-node of that harmonic. That's the biggest difference between placing the same pickup in different locations on a guitar. Smaller harmonics in terms of size of the waveform on the string (higher frequencies) have a greater amplitude at the extremities of the string due to the location of nodes and anti-nodes. This is the main reason the bridge pickup is inevitably brighter sounding. The neck pickup is much closer to the highest level of string resonance for the first, second, and third harmonics and therefore sounds a little darker with a strong harmonic emphasis the octave+fifth frequency of whatever note you play.

 

[UnsungHeroGuitars]

Who knew your guitars were Welsh?

There's tidy :encouragement:

 

[Slammin Mofo]

The reason I posted this poll was my recent experience with two superstrat guitars. One of the guitars had a rosewood fingerboard, maple shaft and an alder body, the other had an all maple neck, mahogany body and a quilted maple top. Both had the same shape, floyd rose mechanics, the same sperzel locking tuners, the pickups were also the same (Bareknuckle VHII) and the volume pot and other electronic components were fairly equal. Pots are known to have a tolerance of about +-10%, so I measured both these pots and they had a value of 483k and 485k, no big difference. I played both these guitars with clean and overdriven amp settings, and to my surprise, they sounded the same! I was always convinced that wood did contribute to the overall sound of the guitar, but now I'm not so sure. Out of curiosity I started researching this subject matter and many confusing and even contradicting statements by many guitar makers and guitar magazines, forum posts etc. . Then I stumbled upon a scientific online book by a German electro-acoustic engineer and college professor called manfred zollner (here's his site: https://hps.hs-regensburg.de/~elektrogitarre/) and that guy is basically saying that the effects of tone woods on the amplified guitar tone are negligible.

If we were to analyze just the acoustic tone of the electric guitar, I would definitely agree that wood makes a major difference. However, once we're talking about the electrical signal that the guitar produces, I'm not so sure anymore. The tone itself is created by strings altering the magnetic field of the pickups through their undulation. The resulting electric signal is then shaped by the volume and tone pots, capacitors, resistors and wires before it finally leaves the guitar through the jack output. The wood itself is only the holding element for the mechanical hardware that ensures the appropriate string tension, it has no immediate connection to the string. The wood does start to vibrate once you hit the strings, but I don't see how this could affect the magnetic field in a significant way.

 

[Slammin Mofo]

The perfect example for the tonal qualities of wood is the xylophone.

Yes, but the xylophone is an acoustic instrument. I know that wood does make a difference for acoustic guitars, violins, flutes etc. I think it's illegitimate to apply insights and conclusions that are based on an instrument family X, to a different instrument family Y.

interestingly.. I have two Morgan Guitar Works V6 guitars
the necks were cut from the same blank of flamed maple, the fingerboards from the same piece of African ebony
the bodies are alder but likely not from the same tree
the hardware, specs and construction is exactly the same
the pups are the same make, model and specs

for all intents and purposes, they are about as identical as twins get..
so… do that sound the same???
the answer is… NO ! ! ! lol..
sure they both have the same fundamental characteristics..
but in detail
Silures [the purple one] is brighter and slightly more aggressive
Ordovices [the tangerine one] is slightly warmer and has a more gentle voice

Have you checked the electronic components? The pots are often underestimated when it comes to tone, and they're seldom exactly 500k or 250k.

 

[hideous]

high output - not much
low output - yes

imo. ymmv.

 

[BigD1977]

The reason I posted this poll was my recent experience with two superstrat guitars. One of the guitars had a rosewood fingerboard, maple shaft and an alder body, the other had an all maple neck, mahogany body and a quilted maple top. Both had the same shape, floyd rose mechanics, the same sperzel locking tuners, the pickups were also the same (Bareknuckle VHII) and the volume pot and other electronic components were fairly equal. Pots are known to have a tolerance of about +-10%, so I measured both these pots and they had a value of 483k and 485k, no big difference. I played both these guitars with clean and overdriven amp settings, and to my surprise, they sounded the same! I was always convinced that wood did contribute to the overall sound of the guitar, but now I'm not so sure. Out of curiosity I started researching this subject matter and many confusing and even contradicting statements by many guitar makers and guitar magazines, forum posts etc. . Then I stumbled upon a scientific online book by a German electro-acoustic engineer and college professor called manfred zollner (here's his site: https://hps.hs-regensburg.de/~elektrogitarre/) and that guy is basically saying that the effects of tone woods on the amplified guitar tone are negligible.

If we were to analyze just the acoustic tone of the electric guitar, I would definitely agree that wood makes a major difference. However, once we're talking about the electrical signal that the guitar produces, I'm not so sure anymore. The tone itself is created by strings altering the magnetic field of the pickups through their undulation. The resulting electric signal is then shaped by the volume and tone pots, capacitors, resistors and wires before it finally leaves the guitar through the jack output. The wood itself is only the holding element for the mechanical hardware that ensures the appropriate string tension, it has no immediate connection to the string. The wood does start to vibrate once you hit the strings, but I don't see how this could affect the magnetic field in a significant way.

Interesting!

I've only ever built 1 guitar so I don't have the means to do an A/B purely based on wood choice. In other words, I could be convinced as the tone of the guitar I built could also be put down to numerous other things, such as body density, construction, pots, etc. and I'm very aware of the snakeoil nature of guitars and audio equipment in general.

I must do a bit of reading.

 

[Sidivan]

The reason I posted this poll was my recent experience with two superstrat guitars. One of the guitars had a rosewood fingerboard, maple shaft and an alder body, the other had an all maple neck, mahogany body and a quilted maple top. Both had the same shape, floyd rose mechanics, the same sperzel locking tuners, the pickups were also the same (Bareknuckle VHII) and the volume pot and other electronic components were fairly equal. Pots are known to have a tolerance of about +-10%, so I measured both these pots and they had a value of 483k and 485k, no big difference. I played both these guitars with clean and overdriven amp settings, and to my surprise, they sounded the same! I was always convinced that wood did contribute to the overall sound of the guitar, but now I'm not so sure. Out of curiosity I started researching this subject matter and many confusing and even contradicting statements by many guitar makers and guitar magazines, forum posts etc. . Then I stumbled upon a scientific online book by a German electro-acoustic engineer and college professor called manfred zollner (here's his site: https://hps.hs-regensburg.de/~elektrogitarre/) and that guy is basically saying that the effects of tone woods on the amplified guitar tone are negligible.

If we were to analyze just the acoustic tone of the electric guitar, I would definitely agree that wood makes a major difference. However, once we're talking about the electrical signal that the guitar produces, I'm not so sure anymore. The tone itself is created by strings altering the magnetic field of the pickups through their undulation. The resulting electric signal is then shaped by the volume and tone pots, capacitors, resistors and wires before it finally leaves the guitar through the jack output. The wood itself is only the holding element for the mechanical hardware that ensures the appropriate string tension, it has no immediate connection to the string. The wood does start to vibrate once you hit the strings, but I don't see how this could affect the magnetic field in a significant way.

Totally agree.

The logic behind wood affecting tone is that the string is transferring energy to the body, so the type of wood should dictate what frequencies are readily absorbed and which resonate within the wood. This creates a change in the string vibration both by essentially cutting some frequencies out and by reinforcing others via the entire body wood shaking.

IMO, that's pseudo-scientific at best. This upcoming Friday, I will be in Salt Lake City auditioning some Viktorian Carbon Fiber electrics. I have an Emerald carbon fiber acoustic and it sounds great!

 

[clarky]

Who knew your guitars were Welsh?

yup….
they were made in Wales by a guy of Welsh decent..
which is why they were named after Welsh tribes [and I collectively refer to them as The Celts]

funny really.. those two tribes were respectable for the Roman's equivalent of Vietnam
and their first ever gig was…
Rome

awesome..

 

[clarky]

Yes, but the xylophone is an acoustic instrument. I know that wood does make a difference for acoustic guitars, violins, flutes etc. I think it's illegitimate to apply insights and conclusions that are based on an instrument family X, to a different instrument family Y.



Have you checked the electronic components? The pots are often underestimated when it comes to tone, and they're seldom exactly 500k or 250k.

there really isn't much to the electrics…
just a volume pot with no tone control..
the parts are the same

the differences I'm talking about are pretty small..
but they are certainly there..

 

[Rex]

...I stumbled upon a scientific online book by a German electro-acoustic engineer and college professor called manfred zollner (here's his site: https://hps.hs-regensburg.de/~elektrogitarre/) and that guy is basically saying that the effects of tone woods on the amplified guitar tone are negligible.

Thanks for the link. I've downloaded the paper and am attempting to make sense of it. Both my engineering studies and my high-school German are decades-old and a bit rusty, so my understanding here is incomplete.

It's a technical paper, but I'm not sure how scientific it is. I zereoed in on Chapter 7.9, where he discusses wood. He spends many pages explaining why he doesn't expect the wood to make much difference. Then he presents some data—here he seems to state that pickups make the biggest difference, and wood makes a smaller difference (page 7-11, last paragraph). He ends the section with many pages of quotes from guitar publications and famous guitarists, some of which have little to do with the subject at hand (example: "Neil Young: I am of the firm belief that every note played on a guitar is still somehow in it. Although it comes as a sound from the body, but is always still in the wood. Everything that happens on a guitar, stays in it and adds up to an overall experience (G & B 12/05).").

These are my impressions, and I freely admit that I may have missed something in the translation.

The wood does start to vibrate once you hit the strings, but I don't see how this could affect the magnetic field in a significant way.

The pickup is mounted to the wood. When the wood vibrates, so does the pickup. That means it moves relative to the strings, and that has the same effect as the strings moving relative to the pickup.

 

[Solarfire]

Yes, but the xylophone is an acoustic instrument. I know that wood does make a difference for acoustic guitars, violins, flutes etc. I think it's illegitimate to apply insights and conclusions that are based on an instrument family X, to a different instrument family Y.

You missed the point, wood has tonal qualities. That being said, the settling time of strings attached to a resonant structure, is dependent on the effects of damping and phase, that the structure develops at different frequencies induced by the vibrating string(s) attached to said structure. In some cases phase issues have been observed, causing what some perceive as dead spots on the neck. When the string and carrying structure get out of phase (they actually are never totally in phase) then cancelation/Interference will literally choke the note in question to death. Bottom line, the ability for string to freely resonate and how well the desired note settles in, is directly dependent on the material properties of the carrying structure. A string will sound totally different attached to steel-, maple-, pine-, balsa-, glass- or plastic-structure, that’s the law of physics not opinion, try it.

 

[Ant Music]

I reckon any differences are realistically negligible. Woods are functional and cosmetic, like furniture really.

 

[jeremypodom]

Has someone ever conducted a test with an instrument that has the pickup mounted to a structure separate from the strings? That would be the best way to objective test the wood effect. Change out bodies on the instrument while the pickup never comes in contact with it.

 

[aziz]

I've tested a telecaster experiment where we changed the bridge to a tune-o-matic, and that made a radical difference to the sound. The same guitar builder guru demonstrated two strats, other was a Fender custom shop and the other was made by him. Same kind of hardware, and the Fender sounded like lump of wet pulp compared to the other guitar. Wood, and perhaps attention to detail was the difference. I don't know what, but I know that which guitar I'd rather bring home.

 

[Rex]

Has someone ever conducted a test with an instrument that has the pickup mounted to a structure separate from the strings? That would be the best way to objective test the wood effect. Change out bodies on the instrument while the pickup never comes in contact with it.

IMO, taking the wood-to-pickup connection out of the equation isn't the best way to test whether wood makes a difference in a real-world guitar.

 

[unFILTERed]

Rex we had a similar conversation before...to your pick up vibration theory:

I have two guitars one plugged in to an amp....lets say i play the lower E string on it.
The second guitar is a massive body jazz guitar, i play a lower A on it and couple
up the bodies of both guitars. So according to your theory since the vibration of the
second guitar is transmitted to first guitars body the pick ups of the amplified guitar vibrate now
with a different frequency....and the tone should change?! Should we try, does it make sense?