• We would like to remind our members that this is a privately owned, run and supported forum. You are here at the invitation and discretion of the owners. As such, rules and standards of conduct will be applied that help keep this forum functioning as the owners desire. These include, but are not limited to, removing content and even access to the forum.

    Please give yourself a refresher on the forum rules you agreed to follow when you signed up.

[WON'T HAPPEN] Independency of Master Volume and Level in the AMP-Block

egonle

New Member
Level shall work independent from master volume and vice versa
IMHO it makes live easier not to have to correct every master volume change by the level
hope, not to generate redundancy ... if so ... sorry
 
Last edited:

lqdsnddist

Axe-Master
They are independent. Master volume affects the modeling, how driven the power amp section is etc, level is the output level and doesn’t affect the modeling of the amp

Turning up master volume does increase the output, at least to a point of saturation, but that is how it works on a real amp

Nice thing with the axe is you can crank the master and then turn down the level, having cranked amp tone without crazy volume

Don’t really understand what your asking.....
 

egonle

New Member
Thanks for answering ...
I know how it works, but since axe is digitally, we can differ without changing tone. Let master volume do it´s job (equ. to analog tube world) but dont´t touch outpul level of the amp block ... iow, keep output level independent from saturation, sound, etc.

Your comment:
Nice thing with the axe is you can crank the master and then turn down the level, having cranked amp tone without crazy volume

Agree, but why to turn down level ... Level should work the same like in all other blocks
 
Last edited:

yek

Moderator
Moderator
Not possible. MV affects compression etc.
There’s no formula to compensate.
 

lqdsnddist

Axe-Master
I think you don't understand how the master volume works on most amps, because the behavior, depending on the amp increases output levels up to a point on some amps, then just results in more saturation as you turn it up louder, without increasing too much volume, this is common on a Mesa style amp. Other amps like a Plexi continue to have the output increase with the MV turned up as well as more saturation.

You essentially want to remove a key part of what makes each model of the power tube section of the amps unique. If the MV didn't affect output volume at all, it would be at the cost of affecting realism.

The whole point of the level control is so you can adjust the output independent of the MV control which allows for realistic MV behavior. If it was the same on each and every amp model we'd have 200 amps that all had the same generic behavior, and who needs 200 amps when they are all behaving the same way ?
 

egonle

New Member
... think you got me wrong
Keep MV as it is ... I do understand how it works ... i do not want to "delete" MV ... NO.
... but why shall "Output"-Level decrease/increase by changing MV ? (I know well it does in real amp world ... but we are digitally).
Question: Does any Change of the "Output"-Level only (in the axe) in the Amp Block affect tone, saturation etc. or is it similar to a volume control ?
 

egonle

New Member
I´m talking about Output-Level!

Manual, page 42:
OUTPUT LEVEL – This is a copy of the LEVEL control on the MIX page for easy volume adjustment without page turning. This only affects volume. It has no effect on tone! For many people, this is the "go to" parameter for setting the output level of a preset.

Keep this constant while tweaking with MV ... that´s all ... nothing more.
It shall keep editable ... for final leveling your presets after tweaking.
 
Last edited:

GiRa

Power User
This has been discussed so many times through the years and I think the easiest way is to use two knobs at once: decrease the amp block level while raising the master volume and vice versa.
 

Tahoebrian5

Fractal Fanatic
I think maybe English is @egonle s second language? the original title and post are a bit misleading.. He is asking for master and output to be linked so you can change the master while the output remains constant, correct? It would be helpful in my opinion and I have actually posted up about the same thing in the past, but there is no easy way to do it. Over the years I have gotten used to it and it's not too hard to find the sweet spot and adjust the output level, it's an iterative process. Usually I copy amp X to y and compare different master settings.
 

egonle

New Member
Thanks for your comments
You´re right, in terms of what I´m looking for and ... I´m german.
btw I do the same, copying X to Y and also use different presets (only with different MV), to find my favorite.
 

lqdsnddist

Axe-Master
This would require a pretty complex bit of engineering as each different amp model would need different adjustments made to automatically reduce or increase the fixed output level while still allowing things like compression and saturation to change.

It would basically be a master volume that has no interactions with output level but then tone and realism would likely suffer. It would no longer be typical MV behavior but an idealized MV that changes tone, compression etc, but not levels, so it would need to apply some sort of extra level of compression or make-up gain to keep a constant output level.

I don’t see where the problem lies with the current two know settings where you set the MV to where it sounds best tone wise and then just adjust the level as needed. It’s giving you full range of MV control with independnt output level, essentially what people used to do with amp attenuators. Crank the amp til it sounds good, kill the volume with the attenuator.
 

egonle

New Member
Thanks, and yes ...
I manage this like you (crank and kill) and also Thahoebrian5 (copy X to Y) mentioned/suggested.
I believe too, "some" Lines of Code are neccessary.
 

hippietim

Fractal Fanatic
This would result in a breaking change for anyone that uses a modifier on master volume and fixing it would be nontrivial since it would require emulating the current behavior by manipulating two parameters with the same modifier.
 

FractalAudio

Administrator
Fractal Audio Systems
Moderator
It's not possible. MV increases the power amp drive. If the power amp is distorting then the apparent volume will decrease as the MV is increased. It's impossible to predict how much the volume will decrease because it's dependent on dozens of other things like the Input Drive, BMT, pickup output, presence of Drive block, etc., etc., etc.

This has been discussed hundreds of times over the years.
 
Top Bottom