Will this ever sound good in a live band setting?

Same here, great live tone and sound engineers love me! Most run their boards flat, or very close to flat and sound checks last about a minute, lol. I play a clean tone and distorted tone just for levels.
I've had huge rack systems and smaller pedalboard rigs both with tube amps and using the Axe a Fx II direct to FOH gives me the best tone I've ever had. I monitor on stage through a RCF, and my band, fans, guitar players in the audience etc. have always given positive comments on my tone.


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I think the device excels best when cab and amp sims are on. Send an XLR feed to the FOH. I believe you will need a different kind of stage monitor than what you have. The cab sims, are what a microphone hears, that is touching the grill cloth, and sounds fantastic in a mix through FOH. However, it may not sound like you'd expect, from past experience of standing a few feet and ear level away from a cranked Twin or having a Twin or half-stack at your backline and standing 6-8 feet in front of it at your mic position. But still, an SM57 1 inch away from your twin or half-stack and plugged into the FOH mains, will be what the crowd hears, and that's what the Axe FX sounds like. People think those two sounds are the same, but they aren't. If you get a "small sound system" or FRFR speakers and put them on stage, again, the system is amplifying the tone of a mic directly in front of a speaker. If you've ever listened to your guitar through a full PA, from the audience's perspective, it does not have the same sound, as when you go on stage and stand directly in front of your amp/speaker cabinet. The act of miking, and then having it conveyed through a PA, changes the way it sounds. The good news is, music listeners, are used to hearing guitar this way. They aren't used to hearing guitar while standing in front of a 4x12. Musicians are used to it, however, and that is the piece you feel you are missing. FRFR or a mini-sound system will help get you there, with axe fx cab and amp sims on, but it still won't be the same to you on-stage, as a 100% traditional amp/speaker cabinet.

To the audience, it will be amazing.

Wow ... never really thought about this! Thanks Rod. :encouragement:
 
another example. the church i play it the sound guy used to travel and run for Usher and other big name acts in arena type tours. I talked with him before first run through and told him what he'd be getting from me (direct, line level, etc), and asked him to let me know if he needed anything from me. After rehearsal I checked in with him, he said it was one of the best, mix ready tones he's ever dealt with, and that while he has to do a lot of corrective eq for the guy that is usually there (i'm only here two weekends a month so I just fill in), who uses a big boutique board into a handwired AC30, that he found himself taking that out until my channel was totally flat. He couldn't believe it.

This is the type of reaction I always get. Never fails...
This. The consistency of sound is phenomenal. Sometimes, the sound guy asks me if I applied a high and low cut and if I can take it out so he can adjust it to taste instead (I do cut highs and lows in the global EQ). So I usually flatten my global EQ if they ask and there we go. Gotta leave them something to do from time to time, right? ;)
 
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I have a lot of experience with FRFR and when using IRs it's important to judge a sound based on how it sits in a given mix.

The problem with having a monitor pointed at your face is this: If you're monitoring just your guitar tone (outside of the mix), it will most likely seem too bright and thin. It may well work in the FOH mix though. If you mellow out your tone to sound good when isolated, it may no longer have enough high frequency content to cut through a mix. If you're setting up a FRFR monitor pointed at you, try it with a full band mix in addition to your personal tone and see what you think.
 
I have a lot of experience with FRFR and when using IRs it's important to judge a sound based on how it sits in a given mix.

The problem with having a monitor pointed at your face is this: If you're monitoring just your guitar tone (outside of the mix), it will most likely seem too bright and thin. It may well work in the FOH mix though. If you mellow out your tone to sound good when isolated, it may no longer have enough high frequency content to cut through a mix. If you're setting up a FRFR monitor pointed at you, try it with a full band mix in addition to your personal tone and see what you think.
It's just about getting acustomed to the FRFR hi-fi sound.
I'm using FRFR monitoring for years now and whenever I step into an amp showroom in a local music store, I'm like "yeah ... umm ... muddy, mid-heavy, ... don't like it.".
 
it can also help to adjust the high cut in the cab block to more closely resemble the response of a guitar cab, in the 7k-10k range. some would argue to just adjust the eq on the amp to compensate but i feel like it has a different vibe than setting the cuts in the cab block then dialing in. I low cut at 80-100 and high cut at 10k, personally...but I'm used to FRFR and don't mind the brightness...someone that is used to cabs might want to cut more highs to give them a bit more of what they are used to. And, to be honest, it's not a DRASTIC difference, but it definitely tames the hifi thing a good bit.
 
Well, until the OP comes back to this thread with new info, it's all just speculation for the time being. The OP also specifically stated that he's going about this with a power amp and "traditional" cabinet, and to this point hasn't really shown any interest in using a full-range speaker system on stage. Whether you or I or anyone else think this is the way he should go is a moot point and pissing in the wind. Maybe he will consider it, but FRFR is not the topic of this thread.

Hopefully the OP will rejoin this thread and enlighten us with an update to his situation.
 
Then the problem lies in what's different between your recording setup and your live setup

^-This!

I've comment about this before, I can have a killer "live" sound, and then I go to record it and it sounds dull and muffled. If I dial in a great recorded sound, it sounds thin and shrill live. Start with a blank preset, and build your own from scratch.

For the record, I was never able to get power amp/speaker to sound as good as FRFR. I tried it 6 ways from Sunday, but just couldn't get the same full sound and flexibility as I'm getting from my CLRs. There are plenty of here that are, but for me FRFR was the answer.
 
you're right, Jim...that part slipped my mind. Sorry for the useless post! lol

I actually agree with you pretty much 100% and love the results for 6 string guitar going FRFR into my active CLRs. Not useless posts, and I'm pretty anxious about seeing where the OP lands with thing.

FWIW, this weekend I was in the audience listening to a band in a decent sized room, good PA, etc., and heard their soundcheck and 1st set. The guitarist was using a Marshall tube head (not sure what model) + 4x10 slant cab. Hearing the tone off the stage without PA reinforcement was...ahem...well...interesting. It did not sound good. The FOH mixer wasn't much help either, but ya know, it was a local cover band, so it is what it is. The guitar tone was very fizzy on top, sort of inarticulate due to the amount of overdrive used, and surprisingly, this tone was used for ALL of the songs played (standard issue current/classic hits rock). No cleans or half-dirty tones, no lead boosts with effects - just a sort of generic 80's hard rock tone that sounded fine for Poison covers and that ilk, but not so much good for the Black Crowes.

It just goes to show that there is nothing particularly magical about tube rigs, necessarily, and a lot rests in the hands of the end user. Not saying that is necessarily the case with the OP in this thread, but was certainly the case with the guitarist I heard using the Marshall half stack. FWIW....back on topic now? LOL!
 
For live use, no FOH: I use an Engl E840/50 tube stereo power amp, no cab or power amp sims. It totally crushes my solid-state amp I had before (Mosvalve 500). But If I was playing big venues with a top PA system I would go direct with the sims on. I too had an issue with running a solid-state amp with PA sims on and the cab sims off into a celestion loaded 4x12, it was harsh, boomy, and got lost in the mix. Completely opposite of what I got recording direct. That sounded phenomenal.

IMHO, I think the Axe sounds best running into an excellent FRFR setup with all the sims on, or the little less versatile, but great amp in the room sound, tube power amp with the PA and cab sims disabled. Running it with a solid-state power amp with the PA sims enabled and cab sims disabled into a guitar cab is its weakest link, IMHO. That's not to say it's impossible to get a great sound with this type of setup, I'm sure plenty of people have. This is just my take on the situation from my experience
 
dial up an amp and start completely from scratch.

I have to quote this for truth. get the axe fx out, and start with a fresh slate. Just your amp block on the grid, going through cables you trust to the power amp and so on. You should have a working tone in minutes. I've been a pretty big FRFR guy with the axe fx because it's usually been easier to use the cab block and get rolling, but this specific thread had me break out my two 4x12's and my matrix just to see if fw18 made things easier. It did! I lost the whole evening to the VibroVerb and the MkIIc+ (which is known to be difficult to dial in) and my first problems happened to be reducing bottom end and the sense of weight. The "speaker" page of the amp block is where a lot of the magic is, and most problems I've had with thin tone have been caused there. I recommend you sweep that low frequency, and don't assume lower and deeper is going to sound bigger. A lot of the punch can live between 100-250 hz, and also you should experiment with the Q because sometimes you want it wider instead of boosting it higher.

Last thing I have to say is don't give up on FRFR completely either. By all means, use real cabs for now because that's what you're comfortable with, but make it a point to use the cab sims and make a few presets that use them. Just be careful with the top end. It easy to make them sound "too sweet" and sharp on top if you dial it in like it's a cab in the room with the cones pointed at your knees, because you're usually using an IR that was shot with the mic looking right at the cone. Check your dynamic presence knob and especially the "bright" knob. Not to be confused with the on/off "brt" that simulates a bright switch, but the rotary control thats a few pages over. It can dial a lot of "bite" in and out while keeping most of what you had in mind for the eq section of an amp intact.

A little bit of top end goes a long way in FRFR, ESPECIALLY when you're adding substantial power and volume to it
 
Where abouts in Melbourne?
Happy to check out what your hearing and compare rigs if your interested.

I had the same issue when the axefx2 first came out. I just couldnt get tones I was happy with and I returned the unit for a refund.
This time ive persisted and l couldnt be happier with how it sounds. Lets get this sorted for you!!!!!!
Cheers
Gary.

Hey Gary,

I'm in the Eastern Suburbs. Ringwood. I'd be wrapped to spend some time with an experienced user if you're available. Will send you a PM with my contact details.

Steve.
 
it can also help to adjust the high cut in the cab block to more closely resemble the response of a guitar cab, in the 7k-10k range. some would argue to just adjust the eq on the amp to compensate but i feel like it has a different vibe than setting the cuts in the cab block then dialing in. I low cut at 80-100 and high cut at 10k, personally...but I'm used to FRFR and don't mind the brightness...someone that is used to cabs might want to cut more highs to give them a bit more of what they are used to. And, to be honest, it's not a DRASTIC difference, but it definitely tames the hifi thing a good bit.
The IRs we got in the Axe are exact representations of the miced cab sound. If you think they are too bright, then this is basicly because you are used to hear the speakers blowing at your feet, not your ears. If you'd kneel down for a second, you'll instantly notice that the bright, harsh sound you get from the IRs is there even on real cabs.

So, it's not so much about cutting frequencies. If you do that, you are pretty much damaging your tone. It's all about getting used to the FRFR sound and embracing the higher fidelity sound as an advantage (and it is, as now you're hearing what the audience is hearing), instead of a drawback.
 
The IRs we got in the Axe are exact representations of the miced cab sound. If you think they are too bright, then this is basicly because you are used to hear the speakers blowing at your feet, not your ears. If you'd kneel down for a second, you'll instantly notice that the bright, harsh sound you get from the IRs is there even on real cabs.

So, it's not so much about cutting frequencies. If you do that, you are pretty much damaging your tone. It's all about getting used to the FRFR sound and embracing the higher fidelity sound as an advantage (and it is, as now you're hearing what the audience is hearing), instead of a drawback.

If someone wants the cab modeling to resemble a guitar cab's tone, low-passing the signal is a good approach IMHO.
Because that person is probably looking for the far-field speaker tone, and not the close-mic'd tone.

When using my CLR as a backline amp, as opposed to a monitor, I always low- and highpass the signal. Works great for me.

Another advantage is that lowpass + highpass contribute to a focused tone. When narrowing the frequency range, I don't have to turn up the volume as much and I hear myself better.
Applies to guitar cabs too (dialing out bass), and to FRFR even more.

Every time when I compare an unlimited FRFR range (20 - 20.000 Hz) tone to a high-/lowpassed tone, I prefer the latter (in a band situation).
 
it can also help to adjust the high cut in the cab block to more closely resemble the response of a guitar cab, in the 7k-10k range. some would argue to just adjust the eq on the amp to compensate but i feel like it has a different vibe than setting the cuts in the cab block then dialing in. I low cut at 80-100 and high cut at 10k, personally...but I'm used to FRFR and don't mind the brightness...someone that is used to cabs might want to cut more highs to give them a bit more of what they are used to. And, to be honest, it's not a DRASTIC difference, but it definitely tames the hifi thing a good bit.

do you do this per preset or globally?
 
do you do this per preset or globally?
Since I used Global Cabs, it's saved in the cab block, so every time I build a preset it's already there in my saved templates.

Yek, where do you usually set yours? Are you around 10k or closer to real cab, like around 7-8k?
 
It depends. In 'backline' mode I go as low as 5000 Hz. Varies per venue.
Obviously 5K is no good for sparkling cleans. But that's easily solved by using XY.

I use global blocks too so it's easy.
 
When using my CLR as a backline amp, as opposed to a monitor, I always low- and highpass the signal. Works great for me.

Another advantage is that lowpass + highpass contribute to a focused tone. When narrowing the frequency range, I don't have to turn up the volume as much and I hear myself better.
Applies to guitar cabs too (dialing out bass), and to FRFR even more.

Good point being made here yek- lately I've been playing in a project where there's quite a bit going on (multiple guitars players, some keys or sax here or there, etc). I use EQ (hi/low passing along w/ other EQ adjustments) to get my tone focused, as you said, to where I need it in the mix. I use 1/2 CLRs set up like back line directly behind me on the ground and I typically use a stool while playing (so I'm near ear level with my sound). I'm assuming the OP is doing this same thing running w/ a power amp and actual guitar cabs (using EQ either from the amp model block or from EQ/PEQ blocks, etc.) to get to the same point. Same as it's been for many years... digital or analog, miced or not, etc.
 
It depends. In 'backline' mode I go as low as 5000 Hz. Varies per venue.
Obviously 5K is no good for sparkling cleans. But that's easily solved by using XY.

I use global blocks too so it's easy.

true. I really have 2 amp and cab combos that cover most everything I need (i'm not a specific tone for specific song type player, i find consistent tones that work across most songs and use boosts/drives help) so maybe it's a bit easier for me. Will def experiment taking it down around the 5-7k mark though, because when I have my CLR on stage I have it tilted behind me as backline.
 
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