Why Your Amp Doesn't Sound Like Our Amp

So for amps with a "channel" volume and separate overall "master" volume: is the Fractal model based on the amp with the channel master on 10 and the master is adjustable?

And if so, would the master volume trim be able to adjust the channel master down below "10"?
 
great thread...
For me this opens up a question.
What are the classic mods performed on amps over the years that are in general, great mods?
 
I think rather than closing off-topic threads, there should be a ‘Chuckle Line:’ anything below the Chuckle Line is all us chuckleheads feeding off the scraps after the topic has already been picked clean.

I’m thinking of one of the FW release threads that devolved into us geeks reminiscing about old programming languages.... definitely time to declare it a chuckle-zone
 
Please disregard. Ive now been able to dial in this sound with Recto 2 orange vintage but with very key tweaks!
 
But speaking of amps, anyone know why there is not more Freyettes/old VHT amp models? Those Pitbull ultra leads, classics, and Sig X amps are so good, they make you think that marshalls, mesas, and peaveys sound like solid state amps beside them (owned all the pitbulls and sig x).
In fact, the amps are so amazing that I wish there was an option to like my own post here.
 
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But speaking of amps, anyone know why there is not more Freyettes/old VHT amp models? Those Pitbull ultra leads, classics, and Sig X amps are so good, they make you think that marshalls, mesas, and peaveys sound like solid state amps beside them.

I think the main issue is that the schematics for these amps are not readily available. Cliff could do a full signal trace but that would be very labor intensive and he doesn't seem to be interested in doing it. Perhaps one day.
 
I think the main issue is that the schematics for these amps are not readily available. Cliff could do a full signal trace but that would be very labor intensive and he doesn't seem to be interested in doing it. Perhaps one day.
I just did a quick look it seems Fryette are very very secretive with their schematics. It is what it is! We should look more towards brands who are fully willing to help with digital models of their amps. Revv are on board with that, Omega amps are, etc.

That also helps with the perception of the masses on how accurate the digital model is, when it's endorsed by the company who makes it.
 
But speaking of amps, anyone know why there is not more Freyettes/old VHT amp models? Those Pitbull ultra leads, classics, and Sig X amps are so good, they make you think that marshalls, mesas, and peaveys sound like solid state amps beside them (owned them all).
In fact, the amps are so amazing that I wish there was an option to like my own post here.
I used to want a Sig X for a long time. I had a 2ch Rev G Recto that satiated all my needs, so I couldn't justify picking one up at the time, but if I get back into metal, I'd love to have that tone in my arsenal.
 
The models in our products are based on our in-house reference amps. If a model doesn't sound like your version of that amp it won't sound like our reference amp either.
Why?

1. Component accuracy and drift.
The components used in tube amps are low-cost, consumer-grade parts. They typically have tolerances of 10% or more. Over time the value of these components drifts. If your amp is old chances are it doesn't sound like it did when it was new. All our old reference amps are given a thorough checkup prior to modeling with any out-of-tolerance parts replaced.​

2. Potentiometer tolerance.
A typical consumer potentiometer has a tolerance of up to +/- 20%. That's huge and that's end-to-end accuracy. On top of that the midpoint accuracy can be another +/- 20%. So if you have a 1M pot it could be as low as 800K. If it's linear it's midpoint should be 400K but could be as low as 360K. Now your 1M pot that should be 500K at halfway is only 360K. That's an error of 28%!​

3. Potentiometer taper.
A big one. Potentiometers come in a variety of tapers: linear, 30A, 20A, 10A, etc. The taper on an audio taper pot (i.e. 30A) denotes the value of the pot at mid rotation. For example a 1M, 10A pot would be 10% of its value at "noon", or 100K.​
Manufacturers are constantly changing the taper of the pots in their amps. Sometimes the designer changes the taper as customers are reticent to turn knobs much away from noon. It's a weird psychological thing. Sometimes the manufacturer changes the taper due to availability concerns. Sometimes they change the taper when moving manufacturing locations. Sometimes they change the taper for no apparent reason at all.​
Another factor is that almost all amps don't use true log taper pots. They use "commercial log" taper which is a crude approximation to a log taper. This is because true log taper pots are expensive. Fractal Audio products use true log taper. This means that '7' on your amp is not exactly '7' on the model even if the pot in your amp is exactly 1M and its taper is exactly 10A. Why do we do it this way? Because the response is smoother and if true log pots were the same price as consumer log pots everyone would use true log taper.​
We model all amps assuming the pots are ideal. We assume the end-to-end resistance is exactly, say, 1M and the midpoint is, say, exactly 100K. We DO NOT use the values measured in our reference amp because no two amps are the same so we use the DESIGNERS INTENDED VALUE.​
What all this means is '3' on your amp is not necessarily the same as '3' on the Axe-Fx.​
Example: the Master Volume pot in a 5150 is a 1M, 15A audio taper pot. Theoretically it should be 150K at noon. On our reference amp it's about 15% low. If the reference amp's MV is set to '3' we have to set the model to around '2.5' to match. This is unsurprising due to the tolerance of the reference amp's pot.​
4. Indicator accuracy.
On many amps if you set a knob to noon it's not actually halfway in the pot's rotation. Why? Several reasons. Some amps are just weird. For example the Bogner Shiva's minimum rotation is around 6:00 and the maximum is around 4:00. So noon is actually past midpoint. Same with Soldanos. In other cases the knobs aren't oriented perfectly on the shaft. If it's a knurled shaft the knob may be off one tooth. If it's a smooth shaft then you're at the mercy of the human who put the knob on the shaft and tightened the set screw. This is why I prefer D-shafts. Finally the pot itself may be rotated relative to the panel.​
You can try this yourself. Turn the knob on your amp fully CCW. Note the position of the indicator. Now rotate fully CW. Note the marker position. If it's an old amp it's probably not symmetrical.​
Then there's the whole marking thing. Fender's are numbered 1-10. Soldanos go to 11. We use 0-10 so be wary of the amp's numbering.​

5. Power Tube Bias.
Another big one. The transconductance (gain) of a power tube can vary greatly. This is why power tubes are color coded, sold in matched sets, etc.​
Amps come in two flavors: fixed bias and cathode bias. Fixed bias amps apply a "fixed" voltage to the grid of the power tubes. Cathode bias amps use a resistor between the cathode and ground to self bias the tube.​
Most, but not all, fixed bias amps allow the user to adjust the bias point of the amp. This allows the bias point to be set to an optimum value for the particular set of tubes installed (since the transconductance can vary greatly). Some fixed bias amps do not allow adjustment. Examples are Mesa/Boogies, 5150s, and several other brands/types. The drawback of this is that the bias can vary greatly depending upon the gain of the tubes installed. Due to this the manufacturers err on the safe side and the bias is usually much colder than the ideal value.​
Most cathode biased amps are not adjustable. Again you are at the mercy of the tube's gain but these amps tend to be biased hot to begin with and have higher transformer matching which prevents excursion outside of the S.O.A. (safe operating area).​
If the bias is adjustable where the manufacturer decides to bias their tubes is a matter of preference. Most manufacturers bias their tubes on the cold side to prevent premature failure and reduce warranty claims. Especially the larger manufacturers.​
This leads to the question of "what is the ideal bias point?" The pervasive school of thought is you adjust the bias so the idle dissipation is 60-70% of the tube's peak power rating. This is a safe approach and ensures that the tubes don't "red plate" and live fairly long and prosperous lives.​
My opinion is that the ideal bias point is NOT a function of the tube's power rating. It's the point at which the power amp's transfer function is most linear. Unfortunately operating the tubes at that point can result in exceeding the tube's S.O.A. So the optimum bias point depends on the tube's power rating, the transformer primary impedance (matching) and the user's tolerance to tube replacement frequency.​
For example, if we bias an EL34 based power amp at 60% peak dissipation it's actually running fairly cold. If we know that the transformer is slightly overmatched we can bias the tubes hotter, 70% or even more. This will result in a warmer tone but the tubes will wear faster.​
What does all this mean? Well, I bias the virtual tubes on the warm side. EL34s are biased at around 70% because we don't have to worry about them wearing out. 6L6s are biased a little colder, around 60% but this is actually as "warm" as the EL34s because of the higher plate dissipation of a 6L6.​
In practice this means that the models in the Axe-Fx will biased warmer than a new amp straight out of the box as most amps are biased cold (too cold IMO). After you wear the tubes out and bring it to a tech the tech will replace those tubes and bias them hotter than factory. So if you're comparing your new, out-of-the box 5150 with the Axe-Fx model the amp will probably sound "colder". Some people like this, many do not. If you like a colder sounding power amp it's just a knob​
The models in our products are based on our in-house reference amps. If a model doesn't sound like your version of that amp it won't sound like our reference
Have you ever modeled one of your amps exactly all tolerance levels and pot values the same ?
And if so what was your experience playing it ? How close does it get when you do that.
Has and artist ever asked you to model them an exact representation of their amp imperfections and all?
 
The models in our products are based on our in-house reference amps. If a model doesn't sound like your version of that amp it won't sound like our reference amp either.

Have you ever modeled one of your amps exactly all tolerance levels and pot values the same ?
And if so what was your experience playing it ? How close does it get when you do that.
Has and artist ever asked you to model them an exact representation of their amp imperfections and all?

The difference is that the Gain/Bass/Mid/Treble knobs would would all sound like they're slightly above or below 5 when they're dialed in at 5, and you'd need to adjust them up or down slightly to get the same sound as the knobs all at 5.

That's really it, the numbers on the knob would just be slightly off. Electrically if the real knob is 470 Ohm at noon and the model is 500 Ohm at noon, you just need to turn either up or down to match then you've got the same thing. It would make matching the knob positions easier for that exact specific amp, and harder for every other instance of that amp. It would also overcomplicate the math of the knob values for no benefit. And it wouldn't help any of the confusion caused by things like fenders going to 11, or other numbering systems on amps not matching.
 
The difference is that the Gain/Bass/Mid/Treble knobs would would all sound like they're slightly above or below 5 when they're dialed in at 5, and you'd need to adjust them up or down slightly to get the same sound as the knobs all at 5.

That's really it, the numbers on the knob would just be slightly off. Electrically if the real knob is 470 Ohm at noon and the model is 500 Ohm at noon, you just need to turn either up or down to match then you've got the same thing. It would make matching the knob positions easier for that exact specific amp, and harder for every other instance of that amp. It would also overcomplicate the math of the knob values for no benefit. And it wouldn't help any of the confusion caused by things like fenders going to 11, or other numbering systems on amps not matching.
I understand the difference I just wondered if cliff ever modeled an amp exactly for an artist or for himself
 
I just did a quick look it seems Fryette are very very secretive with their schematics. It is what it is! We should look more towards brands who are fully willing to help with digital models of their amps. Revv are on board with that, Omega amps are, etc.

That also helps with the perception of the masses on how accurate the digital model is, when it's endorsed by the company who makes it

Actually if one is a licenced repair person, they can get partial schematics. So if some techs got together and each picked a different think "needing fixing" , then we should be able to have models.
Or Fractal could maybe just grab some pitbulls and sig x and do some dissection.
 
I have contacted Freyette to ask them about this. I have mentioned that a lot of us who own Axe FX 3s are very happy we can access just about any amp imaginable...but at the same time we are very disgruntled that we cannot see the various pitbulls and sig x in the amp block as a selection.

Their response didnt seem too clear to me but it seems there is hope.

Imagine the Pitbulls of Ultra, Classic, and other versions and Sig X models being modeled with the official endorsement of Freyette! Kind of like the super duper Synergy amp modules!

In my opinion, Fryette, while having circuits that I would personally tweak, their amps are to me the best ones ive ever tried out of all amp makers and are also the quietest.
 
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I owned all the pitbulls and sig x (one at a time of course. Always selling at a profit). Best amps ive owned by far.
And I fed them from an high-z friendly TC1128 32 band digitally controlled analog graphic Eq Rack and a keeley modded TS9. I used the TC to take out a bit of 150 to the 300 hz range in a smooth curve going in. And other curves too.

Results were very similar to the DAR FBM, especially with the CL100 Pitbull.
And thats because I personally know that the preamp tube section from the Dar was lifted from the CL 100. Plus the solid state gain stage coming first, and input EQs.
 
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Don't overlook that any given analog pot is not even capable of delivering exactly repeatable readings from the same position. (Prove it to yourself with a multi-meter) The reading at any given position will vary somewhat every time you move the pot away and back. Same on your guitar tone and volume controls. In addition to that, the travel is seldom, if ever, a continuous or even taper: There can be no change at all over some degrees of excursion, and instantaneous jumps at others. Analog potentiometers are crude devices, and no two will perform exactly the same. Which is why "use your ears" is such a vital adage. The visual position of knobs won't deliver exactly the same result even on the same amp, much less between your amp and some rock god's amp. And that's not even getting into capacitors: Depending on its function; a capacitor exhibiting minor leakage or developing a series resistance can provide sufficient ripple or irregularity from one moment to the next to account for a variety of (usually subtle) sound modifying consequences, phasing and ringing from parasitic capacitance among them.

I far prefer having the Axe FX3's "ideal" optimally tuned incarnation of any given amp that can further be micro-tuned to my personal preferences, and will sound the same every time I play it. Since I use it for making music, this improvement in consistency over analog controllers is very helpful. Also it will deliver any desired tone at any volume, which no analog amp can achieve.

There's no tone I could get with a tube amp that I can't do as well, if not better, on the Axe FX3. (Though my standards are perhaps not as "exacting" as some).

While the tonal sculpting with a variety of cabinets available with IRs and FRFR will appeal to many, for those fixated on "authentic": a proper cabinet with speaker(s) matched to the amp model in use, driven by a high quality, flat response, high slew rate SS power amp to authentic SPL levels, will be as close to that real amp in a space as possible. And will have more impact on tone than quibbles about variability in authentic knob positions.
 
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It always bugs me when people try to compare the same knob settings on anything .
Particularly pedals, why should everything on 12 o'clock ever be a reference point. If you are trying to get two units to sound as close to the same as possible first dial a tone you like with A and then using your EARS dial unit B as close as you can, change nothing else and play the same riff the same way ( or even reamp a recording so you can concentrate on the tone and not playing) and that is the real answer.
 
It always bugs me when people try to compare the same knob settings on anything .

Every time I read about people going on an on about that, for decades now, and that the reasons why that's a futile endeavor have been articulated dozens of times here, on music forums, and by pedal builders/electronics techs, etc., I once again thank the stars I'm not OCD to expect pedal and/or amp settings to translate exactly across all platforms/unit samples and just get on with using my ears to tweak things.

I have two JCM-800 amps....if they both sounded the same with the exact settings that would be remarkable (and not very likely to happen; close maybe, but you could bring one in to match the other in about 10 seconds I'd bet). I'm frankly baffled why this keeps coming up over and over, especially when people dig in and argue the point after it's clearly, and simply, explained why this happens.
 
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