Why Your Amp Doesn't Sound Like Our Amp

I find the criticism of the amps in the Axe to be pretty unsubstantial - given if it doesn't sound the same as the real amps at the same setting you have an infinite number of options to get it where you need it.
It's more often than not what you plug it into. If you can make a tube amp sound crap by plugging it into a shitty cab and running it at a very low volume, you can totally do the same with a modeler. People are also not comparing like for like, it's tube amp into a 4x12 vs modeler into studio monitors or PA speakers without even matching the volume levels.
 
The models in our products are based on our in-house reference amps. If a model doesn't sound like your version of that amp it won't sound like our reference amp either.

Why?

1. Component accuracy and drift.
The components used in tube amps are low-cost, consumer-grade parts. They typically have tolerances of 10% or more. Over time the value of these components drifts. If your amp is old chances are it doesn't sound like it did when it was new. All our old reference amps are given a thorough checkup prior to modeling with any out-of-tolerance parts replaced.​

2. Potentiometer tolerance.
A typical consumer potentiometer has a tolerance of up to +/- 20%. That's huge and that's end-to-end accuracy. On top of that the midpoint accuracy can be another +/- 20%. So if you have a 1M pot it could be as low as 800K. If it's linear it's midpoint should be 400K but could be as low as 360K. Now your 1M pot that should be 500K at halfway is only 360K. That's an error of 28%!​

3. Potentiometer taper.
A big one. Potentiometers come in a variety of tapers: linear, 30A, 20A, 10A, etc. The taper on an audio taper pot (i.e. 30A) denotes the value of the pot at mid rotation. For example a 1M, 10A pot would be 10% of its value at "noon", or 100K.​
Manufacturers are constantly changing the taper of the pots in their amps. Sometimes the designer changes the taper as customers are reticent to turn knobs much away from noon. It's a weird psychological thing. Sometimes the manufacturer changes the taper due to availability concerns. Sometimes they change the taper when moving manufacturing locations. Sometimes they change the taper for no apparent reason at all.​
Another factor is that almost all amps don't use true log taper pots. They use "commercial log" taper which is a crude approximation to a log taper. This is because true log taper pots are expensive. Fractal Audio products use true log taper. This means that '7' on your amp is not exactly '7' on the model even if the pot in your amp is exactly 1M and its taper is exactly 10A. Why do we do it this way? Because the response is smoother and if true log pots were the same price as consumer log pots everyone would use true log taper.​
We model all amps assuming the pots are ideal. We assume the end-to-end resistance is exactly, say, 1M and the midpoint is, say, exactly 100K. We DO NOT use the values measured in our reference amp because no two amps are the same so we use the DESIGNERS INTENDED VALUE.​
What all this means is '3' on your amp is not necessarily the same as '3' on the Axe-Fx.​
Example: the Master Volume pot in a 5150 is a 1M, 15A audio taper pot. Theoretically it should be 150K at noon. On our reference amp it's about 15% low. If the reference amp's MV is set to '3' we have to set the model to around '2.5' to match. This is unsurprising due to the tolerance of the reference amp's pot.​
4. Indicator accuracy.
On many amps if you set a knob to noon it's not actually halfway in the pot's rotation. Why? Several reasons. Some amps are just weird. For example the Bogner Shiva's minimum rotation is around 6:00 and the maximum is around 4:00. So noon is actually past midpoint. Same with Soldanos. In other cases the knobs aren't oriented perfectly on the shaft. If it's a knurled shaft the knob may be off one tooth. If it's a smooth shaft then you're at the mercy of the human who put the knob on the shaft and tightened the set screw. This is why I prefer D-shafts. Finally the pot itself may be rotated relative to the panel.​
You can try this yourself. Turn the knob on your amp fully CCW. Note the position of the indicator. Now rotate fully CW. Note the marker position. If it's an old amp it's probably not symmetrical.​
Then there's the whole marking thing. Fender's are numbered 1-10. Soldanos go to 11. We use 0-10 so be wary of the amp's numbering.​

5. Power Tube Bias.
Another big one. The transconductance (gain) of a power tube can vary greatly. This is why power tubes are color coded, sold in matched sets, etc.​
Amps come in two flavors: fixed bias and cathode bias. Fixed bias amps apply a "fixed" voltage to the grid of the power tubes. Cathode bias amps use a resistor between the cathode and ground to self bias the tube.​
Most, but not all, fixed bias amps allow the user to adjust the bias point of the amp. This allows the bias point to be set to an optimum value for the particular set of tubes installed (since the transconductance can vary greatly). Some fixed bias amps do not allow adjustment. Examples are Mesa/Boogies, 5150s, and several other brands/types. The drawback of this is that the bias can vary greatly depending upon the gain of the tubes installed. Due to this the manufacturers err on the safe side and the bias is usually much colder than the ideal value.​
Most cathode biased amps are not adjustable. Again you are at the mercy of the tube's gain but these amps tend to be biased hot to begin with and have higher transformer matching which prevents excursion outside of the S.O.A. (safe operating area).​
If the bias is adjustable where the manufacturer decides to bias their tubes is a matter of preference. Most manufacturers bias their tubes on the cold side to prevent premature failure and reduce warranty claims. Especially the larger manufacturers.​
This leads to the question of "what is the ideal bias point?" The pervasive school of thought is you adjust the bias so the idle dissipation is 60-70% of the tube's peak power rating. This is a safe approach and ensures that the tubes don't "red plate" and live fairly long and prosperous lives.​
My opinion is that the ideal bias point is NOT a function of the tube's power rating. It's the point at which the power amp's transfer function is most linear. Unfortunately operating the tubes at that point can result in exceeding the tube's S.O.A. So the optimum bias point depends on the tube's power rating, the transformer primary impedance (matching) and the user's tolerance to tube replacement frequency.​
For example, if we bias an EL34 based power amp at 60% peak dissipation it's actually running fairly cold. If we know that the transformer is slightly overmatched we can bias the tubes hotter, 70% or even more. This will result in a warmer tone but the tubes will wear faster.​
What does all this mean? Well, I bias the virtual tubes on the warm side. EL34s are biased at around 70% because we don't have to worry about them wearing out. 6L6s are biased a little colder, around 60% but this is actually as "warm" as the EL34s because of the higher plate dissipation of a 6L6.​
In practice this means that the models in the Axe-Fx will biased warmer than a new amp straight out of the box as most amps are biased cold (too cold IMO). After you wear the tubes out and bring it to a tech the tech will replace those tubes and bias them hotter than factory. So if you're comparing your new, out-of-the box 5150 with the Axe-Fx model the amp will probably sound "colder". Some people like this, many do not. If you like a colder sounding power amp it's just a knob twist away.​
This is a fantastic post. Reader NB.
 
Well, I just had a funny experience ...

I tried to match the AxeFX model of the PRS Archon with the real amp and could not get them to sound the same. Both went through an AB switcher into a SD Powerstage 170 and into my Mesa 2x12.
I tried for nearly 15 minutes to match them, without success. The model always sounded too dark and the gainstructure was different in the high end somehow. I remembered the poti tolerance thing and could get it to sound closer by increasing the presence on the AxeFX, but it still was way off ... then it struck me: I'm an idiot and forgot that I engaged the bright switch on my amp and used the wrong model in the Axe ... Flipped the switch on the amp and it was spot on. And also with the bright model in the AxeFx I could not tell the difference by randomly switching between both.
 
Im so happy to hear that this dose not apply to my FM3, I have never had any problem making the FM3 sound like any of my amps or others....
Cheers, ;)
 
@FractalAudio, I would also add mistakes, errors, inconsistencies in the manufacturing process. Smoking too much weed while in the process of wiring amp serial #X, not enough weed when putting together amp serial #Y!!!
 
The models in our products are based on our in-house reference amps. If a model doesn't sound like your version of that amp it won't sound like our reference amp either.
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Is there a place where I can find a list of all this kind of technical articles? I would really love that. @FractalAudio you need a blog!
 
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Cliff— wondering how exactly this equates as far as the non master volume amps where the volume is sitting on 10 on the ideal page. Is that based on an ideal setting or the actual amp modeled?

Just curious because lately I have been experimenting with moving some of the NMV amp volumes just slightly lower than 10(like 9.8 or so) and liking the results. Could some actually be running too ”hot”?
IIRC Angus Young had his techs put a MV on some of his amps, and runs them around 8 because he likes the tone of it better. I've never played a MV Plexi so I can't tell you the difference, but I trust Angus's ears more than mine.
 
Interestingly enough, I picked up a blackface 1964 Bassman not long ago.... the guy was selling it cheap because it was modded.... turns out it has the Bass Channel mod where it's gainy like a plexi... and as it turns out, it seems that the Blackface Bassman that is modded (Dweezil's, I believe) has a similar (or maybe the same?) mod!
 
Try the horizon precision drive model in front of it. It’s glorious.
Yup, exactly what I was doing bud. Sounds amazing. But its not that mid to late 90s rectifier sound that I'm looking for. Remember Sevendust back in the day? Thats the dual rectifier hallmark sound. Limp Bizkit had that sound too.
Also that reggae-metal band Skindred.
And now that I recall this tone, I want it even badlier now. It was such a fine sound.
I think Korn had that sound on one album Issues. It had this softened quality to it's fat high gain.
Also I think Sepultura for Roots when they went all nu-metalish.
Please Cliff, please do try to model that magical dual rectifier with that fat gain! Such an iconic sound.
 
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Yup, exactly what I was doing bud. Sounds amazing. But its not that mid to late 90s rectifier sound that I'm looking for. Remember Sevendust back in the day? Thats the dual rectifier hallmark sound. Limp Bizkit had that sound too.
Also that reggae-metal band Skindred.
And now that I recall this tone, I want it even badlier now. It was such a fine sound.
I think Korn had that sound on one album Issues. It had this softened quality to it's fat high gain.
Also I think Sepultura for Roots when they went all nu-metalish.
Please Cliff, please do try to model that magical dual rectifier with that fat gain! Such an iconic sound.
I've got a thread in the preset exchange subforum where I'm trying to get a modern, idealized version of this tone.
 
I've got a thread in the preset exchange subforum where I'm trying to get a modern, idealized version of this tone.

Ok, will check that out. I guess for me to get anywhere I would need a version # of the dual rectifier so I asked Mesa just now.

Cannibal Corpse had that sound on Gallery of Suicide and that album came out about 1998. Which can be no coincidence. Everyone was going for that sound at one point. Because the rectifier that Corpse used onwards till now sound absolutely NOTHING like that sound at all.

Im actually trying to track down the right rectifier. I always wanted one like that. But when I hear rectifiers today they sound nothing like what I know the iconic rectifier to be. I asked Mesa the following question:

"Hello, I was wondering which model Dual rectifier version number did those nu-metal bands from the mid 90s early 2000's use to get that fat but softened high gain sound? Remember like that sound from Mudvayne, Limp Bizkit, Sevendust, Korn on the Issues album, and other bands? Is there a sub-model number you know like how Marshall JCM 800 has version 2203 or 2204?
I know it was a dual rectifier and it could have been a model release anywhere from 1994 till 1998 is my best guess."

The sound was so mean yet so innocent. So dense yet so pure. And so aggressive yet so non-invasive.
 
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Ok, will check that out. I guess for me to get anywhere I would need a version # of the dual rectifier so I asked Mesa just now.

Cannibal Corpse had that sound on Gallery of Suicide and that album came out about 1998. Which can be no coincidence. Everyone was going for that sound at one point. Because the rectifier that Corpse used onwards till now sound absolutely NOTHING like that sound at all.

Im actually trying to track down the right rectifier. I always wanted one like that. But when I hear rectifiers today they sound nothing like what I know the iconic rectifier to be. I asked Mesa the following question:

"Hello, I was wondering which model Dual rectifier version number did those nu-metal bands from the mid 90s early 2000's use to get that fat but softened high gain sound? Remember like that sound from Mudvayne, Limp Bizkit, Sevendust, Korn on the Issues album, and other bands? Is there a sub-model number you know like how Marshall JCM 800 has version 2203 or 2204?
I know it was a dual rectifier and it could have been a model release anywhere from 1994 till 1998 is my best guess."

The sound was so mean yet so innocent. So dense yet so pure. And so aggressive yet so non-invasive.
We're going off on a tangent here, so we should cut this after this response, but, as a note, Mudvayne used Randall or VHT and Sevendust used a Mesa Mark 4s and then Diamond amps. And Korn use Triple Rectifiers, not Duals. Dual Rectifiers get broken down into revisions. I believe the Recto1 in the AFX is based on a revision G, if I remember correctly.
 
We're going off on a tangent here, so we should cut this after this response, but, as a note, Mudvayne used Randall or VHT and Sevendust used a Mesa Mark 4s and then Diamond amps. And Korn use Triple Rectifiers, not Duals. Dual Rectifiers get broken down into revisions. I believe the Recto1 in the AFX is based on a revision G, if I remember correctly.
Are you making this up as you go?
Korn used Duals up until See you on the Other Side at which point they started with Triple Rectifiers.
And Sevendust did have Dual Rectifiers in their rig. It was combination of those and Marks which were for cleans.
And im not sure where you are getting this Mudvayne using VHT or Randall. Not at all in that era I was at ozzfest 2001 and it was treadplate's. Attached is Mudvayne's rig from that,era.
Dude everyone went for that sound. even Machine head specifically got that version of the Rectifier for The Burning Red album.

Everyone of those bands wanted to sound that way and there was only one amp that could do it. randalls do not have that sound. It was a very specific version of the dual recto.
 

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Are you making this up as you go?
Korn used Duals up until See you on the Other Side at which point they started with Triple Rectifiers.
And Sevendust did have Dual Rectifiers in their rig. It was combination of those and Marks which were for cleans.
And im not sure where you are getting this Mudvayne using VHT or Randall. Not at all in that era I was at ozzfest 2001 and it was treadplate's. Attached is Mudvayne's rig from that,era.
Dude everyone went for that sound. even Machine head specifically got that version of the Rectifier for The Burning Red album.

Everyone of those bands wanted to sound that way and there was only one amp that could do it. randalls do not have that sound. It was a very specific version of the dual recto.
I mean... https://i.pinimg.com/originals/2a/61/f3/2a61f322cc932239bd37c34114d9150f.jpg
I just went and googled to double check, and all the actual pictures of Tribbett's rig from every period ARE Randall or VHT. Backline on a festival doesn't really mean anything. Sometimes those amp diagrams aren't accurate.

And Clint Lowery used the Mark 4 for his rhythm tone until he went to Diamond, and I believe Connolly has been a Randall guy for the band's entire existence. I actually just happened to watch an interview with Lowery yesterday with him talking about it.

And Korn using Triples during whatever period of time really just matters in that it makes it more difficult to figure out what Rectifier revision they were using at a given time.

And, bringing it slightly back on to the topic of this thread before I actually stop this tangent: trying to figure out an amp model to use based on album tones is super complicated. There could be all sorts of other amps thrown into the mix. Comparing a model to album tones is even more iffy than comparing it to an amp a person has played.
 
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