Why Your Amp Doesn't Sound Like Our Amp

With that being said, I would definetly hope that there will be a remodeling the mesa rectifier.
Dont get me wrong, I love my axe fx 3 and its modeling and many amps, but I just feel its a bit flubby on the low end to use the recto. But then again there has been a high variance in the way rectifier sounds over the many models released over the last 20-30 or so years that its been around.
but those rectos from the 90s used by all the nu-metal bands I find were what defined the rectifier. I think the dual and triple. They all had this very fat sound thats hard to describe. And were as tight as that kind of fatness could possibly sound.
Then mesa basically butchered the circuit.
I wish I still had a Recto here with me to help dial in the Fractal. I've had so many (all but Rev D) and I can't get the Fractal to sound like I remember any of them sounding. Rectos have a lot of low end, but maybe not this much.... But I just use the 5150 sim, which sounds very much like the 5150 amp and will fit in wherever a Recto would, IMHO.
 
I bias with a multi meter and my ear.
The meter is so I know how hot I’m going - measuring the current to calculate plate dissipation. Its just for safety.
My ear is used to determine what sounds best. Because that’s what matters.
There is no formula for what sounds best such as biasing at %70. Every tube and amp are different for a variety of reasons.
 
At the risk of someone's wrath, I've had as many as three 2204 heads at once and three Rev F Rectos at once, and all of them were identical as far as I could tell. Small sample size, but I've just not noticed high variability among amps of the same kind.
The incredible rarity of finding three 2204's unmodded and functioning is a wonder in and of itself. I had a used one in the 90s that I blew the output transformer on... well, "I" meaning I was playing it and the power tubes couldn't take the voltage anymore. I sold it and got a new two channel triple recto. I missed both those amps til I got the Axe III and realized I no longer like either.
Anyway, congrats on the incredible experience.
 
With that being said, I would definetly hope that there will be a remodeling the mesa rectifier.
Dont get me wrong, I love my axe fx 3 and its modeling and many amps, but I just feel its a bit flubby on the low end to use the recto. But then again there has been a high variance in the way rectifier sounds over the many models released over the last 20-30 or so years that its been around.
but those rectos from the 90s used by all the nu-metal bands I find were what defined the rectifier. I think the dual and triple. They all had this very fat sound thats hard to describe. And were as tight as that kind of fatness could possibly sound.
Then mesa basically butchered the circuit.
They didn't butcher the circuit they just Modded it further away from the SLO :rolleyes:
the earlier ones and and racks had different transformers as well
 
Cliff— wondering how exactly this equates as far as the non master volume amps where the volume is sitting on 10 on the ideal page. Is that based on an ideal setting or the actual amp modeled?

Just curious because lately I have been experimenting with moving some of the NMV amp volumes just slightly lower than 10(like 9.8 or so) and liking the results. Could some actually be running too ”hot”?
 
@FractalAudio you are a real treasure trove of amp information! Really enjoy reading the wiki for all your quotes and insight on amps. I will definitely refer people to this post when I read yet another "It does not sound exactly like my amp with the same settings" post.

If people learned to pick a reference tone (e.g. their favorite amp sound) and started working their modelers towards that by ear rather than by eye most would probably be happier. And maybe would not ask for yet another amp model when it is just a tiny twist on an existing one...
 
The incredible rarity of finding three 2204's unmodded and functioning is a wonder in and of itself. I had a used one in the 90s that I blew the output transformer on... well, "I" meaning I was playing it and the power tubes couldn't take the voltage anymore. I sold it and got a new two channel triple recto. I missed both those amps til I got the Axe III and realized I no longer like either.
Anyway, congrats on the incredible experience.
Yeah, two were "modded" in strange ways when I got them. Was quick to put them back to stock.
 
With that being said, I would definetly hope that there will be a remodeling the mesa rectifier.
Dont get me wrong, I love my axe fx 3 and its modeling and many amps, but I just feel the rector models are a bit flubby on the low end. But then again there has been a high variance in the way the rectifier amps sound over the many models released over the last 20-30 or so years that its been around.
but those rectos from the 90s used by all the nu-metal bands I find were what defined the ultimate rectifier. I think the dual and triple. They all had this very fat sound thats hard to describe. And were as tight as that kind of fatness could possibly sound.
Then mesa basically butchered the circuit.
Try the horizon precision drive model in front of it. It’s glorious.
 
The models in our products are based on our in-house reference amps. If a model doesn't sound like your version of that amp it won't sound like our reference amp either.

Why?

1. Component accuracy and drift.
The components used in tube amps are low-cost, consumer-grade parts. They typically have tolerances of 10% or more. Over time the value of these components drifts. If your amp is old chances are it doesn't sound like it did when it was new. All our old reference amps are given a thorough checkup prior to modeling with any out-of-tolerance parts replaced.​

2. Potentiometer tolerance.
A typical consumer potentiometer has a tolerance of up to +/- 20%. That's huge and that's end-to-end accuracy. On top of that the midpoint accuracy can be another +/- 20%. So if you have a 1M pot it could be as low as 800K. If it's linear it's midpoint should be 400K but could be as low as 360K. Now your 1M pot that should be 500K at halfway is only 360K. That's an error of 28%!​

3. Potentiometer taper.
A big one. Potentiometers come in a variety of tapers: linear, 30A, 20A, 10A, etc. The taper on an audio taper pot (i.e. 30A) denotes the value of the pot at mid rotation. For example a 1M, 10A pot would be 10% of its value at "noon", or 100K.​
Manufacturers are constantly changing the taper of the pots in their amps. Sometimes the designer changes the taper as customers are reticent to turn knobs much away from noon. It's a weird psychological thing. Sometimes the manufacturer changes the taper due to availability concerns. Sometimes they change the taper when moving manufacturing locations. Sometimes they change the taper for no apparent reason at all.​
Another factor is that almost all amps don't use true log taper pots. They use "commercial log" taper which is a crude approximation to a log taper. This is because true log taper pots are expensive. Fractal Audio products use true log taper. This means that '7' on your amp is not exactly '7' on the model even if the pot in your amp is exactly 1M and its taper is exactly 10A. Why do we do it this way? Because the response is smoother and if true log pots were the same price as consumer log pots everyone would use true log taper.​
We model all amps assuming the pots are ideal. We assume the end-to-end resistance is exactly, say, 1M and the midpoint is, say, exactly 100K. We DO NOT use the values measured in our reference amp because no two amps are the same so we use the DESIGNERS INTENDED VALUE.​
What all this means is '3' on your amp is not necessarily the same as '3' on the Axe-Fx.​
Example: the Master Volume pot in a 5150 is a 1M, 15A audio taper pot. Theoretically it should be 150K at noon. On our reference amp it's about 15% low. If the reference amp's MV is set to '3' we have to set the model to around '2.5' to match. This is unsurprising due to the tolerance of the reference amp's pot.​
4. Indicator accuracy.
On many amps if you set a knob to noon it's not actually halfway in the pot's rotation. Why? Several reasons. Some amps are just weird. For example the Bogner Shiva's minimum rotation is around 6:00 and the maximum is around 4:00. So noon is actually past midpoint. Same with Soldanos. In other cases the knobs aren't oriented perfectly on the shaft. If it's a knurled shaft the knob may be off one tooth. If it's a smooth shaft then you're at the mercy of the human who put the knob on the shaft and tightened the set screw. This is why I prefer D-shafts. Finally the pot itself may be rotated relative to the panel.​
You can try this yourself. Turn the knob on your amp fully CCW. Note the position of the indicator. Now rotate fully CW. Note the marker position. If it's an old amp it's probably not symmetrical.​
Then there's the whole marking thing. Fender's are numbered 1-10. Soldanos go to 11. We use 0-10 so be wary of the amp's numbering.​

5. Power Tube Bias.
Another big one. The transconductance (gain) of a power tube can vary greatly. This is why power tubes are color coded, sold in matched sets, etc.​
Amps come in two flavors: fixed bias and cathode bias. Fixed bias amps apply a "fixed" voltage to the grid of the power tubes. Cathode bias amps use a resistor between the cathode and ground to self bias the tube.​
Most, but not all, fixed bias amps allow the user to adjust the bias point of the amp. This allows the bias point to be set to an optimum value for the particular set of tubes installed (since the transconductance can vary greatly). Some fixed bias amps do not allow adjustment. Examples are Mesa/Boogies, 5150s, and several other brands/types. The drawback of this is that the bias can vary greatly depending upon the gain of the tubes installed. Due to this the manufacturers err on the safe side and the bias is usually much colder than the ideal value.​
Most cathode biased amps are not adjustable. Again you are at the mercy of the tube's gain but these amps tend to be biased hot to begin with and have higher transformer matching which prevents excursion outside of the S.O.A. (safe operating area).​
If the bias is adjustable where the manufacturer decides to bias their tubes is a matter of preference. Most manufacturers bias their tubes on the cold side to prevent premature failure and reduce warranty claims. Especially the larger manufacturers.​
This leads to the question of "what is the ideal bias point?" The pervasive school of thought is you adjust the bias so the idle dissipation is 60-70% of the tube's peak power rating. This is a safe approach and ensures that the tubes don't "red plate" and live fairly long and prosperous lives.​
My opinion is that the ideal bias point is NOT a function of the tube's power rating. It's the point at which the power amp's transfer function is most linear. Unfortunately operating the tubes at that point can result in exceeding the tube's S.O.A. So the optimum bias point depends on the tube's power rating, the transformer primary impedance (matching) and the user's tolerance to tube replacement frequency.​
For example, if we bias an EL34 based power amp at 60% peak dissipation it's actually running fairly cold. If we know that the transformer is slightly overmatched we can bias the tubes hotter, 70% or even more. This will result in a warmer tone but the tubes will wear faster.​
What does all this mean? Well, I bias the virtual tubes on the warm side. EL34s are biased at around 70% because we don't have to worry about them wearing out. 6L6s are biased a little colder, around 60% but this is actually as "warm" as the EL34s because of the higher plate dissipation of a 6L6.​
In practice this means that the models in the Axe-Fx will biased warmer than a new amp straight out of the box as most amps are biased cold (too cold IMO). After you wear the tubes out and bring it to a tech the tech will replace those tubes and bias them hotter than factory. So if you're comparing your new, out-of-the box 5150 with the Axe-Fx model the amp will probably sound "colder". Some people like this, many do not. If you like a colder sounding power amp it's just a knob twist away.​
hope someday there will be SPICE AXE FX III.
😁

Regards,
 
This is nuts. This is just a fraction of what sets this company apart. This is the sort of thing you try to convey to others who ask what's so great about the Axe Fx. So many people are like, "bUt i dOn'T NeEEed aLl tHe OpTiOnS," but they don't realize these aren't arbitrary parameters and features; they're what makes the unit great. The best part is that I don't need to do anything with this information - I can just enjoy the fruit of Cliff's labor :)
 
Back in the early 70's I worked at a music store. We would have 3-4 models of the same amp. I would play all of them when we weren't busy. In most cases only one would stand out, as some of the components just hit a sweet spot because of differences. I think the FAS modeled versions do a great job overall of referencing the best of these! Thanks.
 
I think this thread should be renamed - "Our amp does way more than your amp"

I find the criticism of the amps in the Axe to be pretty unsubstantial - given if it doesn't sound the same as the real amps at the same setting you have an infinite number of options to get it where you need it.
 
So you model an amp based on the design intent, but how do you determine the default settings for factory presets (or should I start a new thread?)

Factory presets are just dialed in by the people that made them.

Cliff— wondering how exactly this equates as far as the non master volume amps where the volume is sitting on 10 on the ideal page. Is that based on an ideal setting or the actual amp modeled?

Just curious because lately I have been experimenting with moving some of the NMV amp volumes just slightly lower than 10(like 9.8 or so) and liking the results. Could some actually be running too ”hot”?

My understanding is that non-MV amps, well, don't have a master volume. The model adds one in at a spot in the circuit where nothing existed before and lets you turn it down before the power amp if you like.
 
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