Why the Obsession with FRFR Solutions?

Why don't you use your garage then? :lol

Anyway this FRFR thing with PA is a fairly moot point, isn't it? Surely the important thing is that (I'm sorry if this has been said before, but I do tend to turn off during bickerfests) you get the sound you like inspiring you, and the sound-guy gets a sound he can work with. Once it's left your AF2 for the desk it is no longer your problem, so don't worry about it.

Am I over simplifying this?

I don't think so. I can't think that even the most expensive FRFR monitor is going to sound exactly like a Cohedra in full song.

I think the European response to this has been trying to use guitar cabs (the recommended FRFR monitors being much more expensive over here). Has anyone tried using passive high freq drivers alongside EVMs - adding what I assume the FRFR monitors have? The EVMs plummet from 5.5khz, so I assume there are important supporting harmonics/freqs produced by the Axe above that which make FRFR so much better...?
 
First caveat is I have not read the whole thread.

But here is my answer to the question.

I take a feed from my axe to the mixing desk, which I control from on stage. Then each band member has their own monitor and monitor mix (controlled from desk).
In my monitor (currently RCFNX12SMA) I have all the instruments and my guitar.
To me speaking

personally its more important that I hear my guitar sounding great than the audience. As long as they hear it at 80% of its great sound then they would be unlikely to tell,the difference whom drinking, dancing etc etc. and a great sound is totally subjective anyway. but for me, I play a whole lot better and enjoy a gig a whole lot more if I'm not thinking " does this sound right", "am I too bright", " do I need more drive", can. Hear the delays" etc. I relax more and the gigs become a real blast rather than a chore.
So I set me presets to be as I want them in my monitor then the FOH gets the same feed but re-produces it slightly differently, the audience don't really care. But I like to hear myself sounding. I intended, hence the reason I have invested in as close to
FRFR as I copuld get at the time I purchased.

Hope my rambling makes sense.
 
I feel incomplete with just the axe-fx... I need to take along with me something that lets me play it.

Some sort of guitar, maybe? :D

BTW. I'm not slagging off FRFR equipment, I use it myself and I it makes me happy. I've experienced the difference between 4x12s and FRFR cabs and physically speaking it is quite pronounced. The 4x12 is more of focused jet of audio power, whereas the FRFR was more of a sharing experience. I'm not saying one is better than the other, they're just different.

I was raised on Judas Priest, and I don't think I will ever forget the spectacle of seeing all those amps and cabs on stage, only to be told later on that they were mostly for show. But it didn't matter because the sound-guy was making the audio magic happen.
 
Some sort of guitar, maybe? :D

BTW. I'm not slagging off FRFR equipment, I use it myself and I it makes me happy. I've experienced the difference between 4x12s and FRFR cabs and physically speaking it is quite pronounced. The 4x12 is more of focused jet of audio power, whereas the FRFR was more of a sharing experience. I'm not saying one is better than the other, they're just different.

I was raised on Judas Priest, and I don't think I will ever forget the spectacle of seeing all those amps and cabs on stage, only to be told later on that they were mostly for show. But it didn't matter because the sound-guy was making the audio magic happen.

I still think the wall of Marshall's fake or no, is bad ass. AC/DC's most recent DVD has a wall of basketweave cabs... love it.
 
I'd love to know where you guys play. 99% of the places I go have barely functional PAs, drunk sound guys, and more often than not, bands with enough stage amplification to play the local arena.
FOH 'mix'? Ha. The FOH is usually struggling to make the vox audible over the stage roar. It's *always* refreshing to hear a band that can keep the stage volume in-check and present the audience with a decent, non-deafening sound. Dare to dream the band is 100% "modeled" (electronic drums too). Every cover/bar/wedding band I've heard that is half-to-fully modeled sounds orders-of-magnitude better than the guys cranking the little combo or sporting a half-stack.

If you're using a modeler - a better question would be: why WOULDN'T you use FRFR for your personal monitoring when & where needed?
 
I'd love to know where you guys play. 99% of the places I go have barely functional PAs, drunk sound guys, and more often than not, bands with enough stage amplification to play the local arena.
FOH 'mix'? Ha. The FOH is usually struggling to make the vox audible over the stage roar. It's *always* refreshing to hear a band that can keep the stage volume in-check and present the audience with a decent, non-deafening sound. Dare to dream the band is 100% "modeled" (electronic drums too). Every cover/bar/wedding band I've heard that is half-to-fully modeled sounds orders-of-magnitude better than the guys cranking the little combo or sporting a half-stack.

If you're using a modeler - a better question would be: why WOULDN'T you use FRFR for your personal monitoring when & where needed?

In 99.999% of the places I play FOH means the place next to the parking lot you can go to and have a smoke.
 
Does these FRFR solutions come with the hearing quality from the speaker designer? If not there is no use investing that kind of money for our wackey, damaged, hearing abilities. Do a measurement and I tell you it will NOT be flat. Or even worse you lwill have a serious loss, - 5 dB or more, around the 4 kHz from to long to loud music.
 
images

I just shat my pants....

Same here. I think I slept with her.
 
I'm going to answer the OP's question as simply as I can, and say:

I'm obsessed with FRFR solutions because it's how 'I' hear my Axe.

I could give you 3 pages of justification/reasoning, but above is all that needs to be said.
 
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Oh, another reason why I take my speakers and amp, FRFR or otherwise, seriously is that in the UK an AF2 costs over $3000. You don't pony-up that sort of wonga and get some moody disco bins. It ain't right.
 
Wow, I guess I'm one of the few who thought the original post came across in an a-hole manner,and every response too. But in case someone who actually cares is looking for more more answers, here ya go.

I have inexpensive FRFR. $550 for the pair. They sound great. I use them as my stage volume. Whatever that means at each club. Sometimes it is my personal "more me" on stage. Sometimes it is back line. I use many synth sounds, which sound like crap through guitar cab. I use an acoustic through it too, which sounds like crap through guitar cab. Having the FRFR solution is the only way to hear myself onstage correctly.

If I plugged direct to FOH with no on stage monitor, and I can't hear myself on stage, I'm screwed. If I turn up my axe, I screw up FOH as well. But with my FRFR on stage I can turn up that output and not affect the FOH.which is really a better solution than having a guitar cab mic'd on stage for that same reason.
 
At Calvary Chapel Sonora Ca. there is a a 100k pa and direct in to it from my Axe II sounds bad, thus micing the pure tone from the RCF then piping that to the house is the way to go. So both killer tone on stage in ear and in the house is the result in this situation. Yes well aware this is not the norm but it works for me!!
 
many times the problem with PA systems and direct guitar is compression for Vocals etc put on guitar, making harmonics and tone do things they aren't supposed to.
 
many times the problem with PA systems and direct guitar is compression for Vocals etc put on guitar, making harmonics and tone do things they aren't supposed to.

Do you consider Axe into PA direct guitar?

Also my inexpensive Yamaha powered mixer has a compression knob for each channel.

Wouldn't setting the compression on the Axe channel to zero solve that?
 
Do you consider Axe into PA direct guitar?

Also my inexpensive Yamaha powered mixer has a compression knob for each channel.

Wouldn't setting the compression on the Axe channel to zero solve that?

If you rely on an Aux channel used as a monitor send, then you are at the mercy of anything being applied to the monitor send that will be necessary for things like preventing feedback, etc. These things aren't applied to just the vocal channel specifically, but rather the entire send to the monitor. A sound engineer, or monitor engineer specifically, is in essence running a whole separate second mix that the audience isn't hearing. It's all to essentially make the stage not feedback, and make it easiest on the vocalist first. Instruments can suffer greatly because of this. Running your own monitor for guitar only bypasses all of those problems. A monitor send can be very far from flat. Anyone who is not experienced in running sound may not realize how much can possibly be done to the signal running to a monitor that can have a very negative effect on the overall guitar tone.
 
Because only really a huge drum fill monitor would be powerful enough for a bass player. I discourage sound guys - especially when I hire them - putting anything apart from vocals in the monitors. We come together on stage and adjust the backline volumes first to get a balance, before starting the "a bit more of his guitar and keys in mine please". WHen it's my pa, that last bit doesn't happen!

This begs the question I was going to ask Scott, who said earlier he used his FRFR monitor for playing bass as well as guitar... I tried this, but have ended up using bass cab speakers with my Axe and power amp as I've found monitors aren't strong enough for loud-enough bass?

I disagree. 1) A good PA with subs should be able to handle it. 2) my FRFR setup is designed *specifically* to reproduce low fundamentals from bass, and from an 88 key controller. The 'fEARFULL' specification for bass cabinets is essentially an FRFR designed to produce low fundamentals (i.e. think a PA speak and sub in one cab). It works very well. Mine is made of composites, from Art of Noise bass cabinets (passive). It's light as hell and reproduces everything well. I just went to their website but it seems to have expired. Still, you can find many other makers using the spec (google fEARFULL or Greenboy), and greenboy also gives away DETAILED specs (these ar enot just cabinet specs - they are the whole thing: drivers, crossovers, everything.
 
If you rely on an Aux channel used as a monitor send, then you are at the mercy of anything being applied to the monitor send that will be necessary for things like preventing feedback, etc. These things aren't applied to just the vocal channel specifically, but rather the entire send to the monitor. A sound engineer, or monitor engineer specifically, is in essence running a whole separate second mix that the audience isn't hearing. It's all to essentially make the stage not feedback, and make it easiest on the vocalist first. Instruments can suffer greatly because of this. Running your own monitor for guitar only bypasses all of those problems. A monitor send can be very far from flat. Anyone who is not experienced in running sound may not realize how much can possibly be done to the signal running to a monitor that can have a very negative effect on the overall guitar tone.

No sound guy -- no engineer -- just a bar band with a $500 powered Yamaha PA mixer ( emx512sc), a couple of Mackie passive PA speakers and a few cheap floor wedges.


6 folks in the band - 2 vocalists up front. Must sound OK because we have so many gigs that we actually turn down work.

We do around 50 shows a year in various clubs/restaurants in NJ and not one venue has a FOH system.

The only time in the last 2 years we actually had an engineer and a high end sound system was when we did an outdoor gig (about 2,000 people).

Pretty cool -- I actually had my own R2D2 air conditioning unit.

Felt like a rock star for one hot Sunday afternoon.
 
I disagree. 1) A good PA with subs should be able to handle it. 2) my FRFR setup is designed *specifically* to reproduce low fundamentals from bass, and from an 88 key controller. The 'fEARFULL' specification for bass cabinets is essentially an FRFR designed to produce low fundamentals (i.e. think a PA speak and sub in one cab). It works very well. Mine is made of composites, from Art of Noise bass cabinets (passive). It's light as hell and reproduces everything well. I just went to their website but it seems to have expired. Still, you can find many other makers using the spec (google fEARFULL or Greenboy), and greenboy also gives away DETAILED specs (these ar enot just cabinet specs - they are the whole thing: drivers, crossovers, everything.

I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with.... My conclusion is that you need subs if playing bass through monitors. I couldn't see how Scott could play bass through a 12 inch monitor without wrecking it. I tried with a JBL powered EON 15 inch, which even at very low volume didn't like it one bit.
 
the "monitoring engineer / foh engineer" can be someone in the band, which makes it ever more important i am able to control my own sound on stage that i am hearing. When you have a guy out front manning the board, and a monitor engineer handling stage right next to you and can adjust on the fly, i don't need my own frfr or amp/cab. I can rely on them. But most of us run our own sound, so it's set it close and play the show and deal with it. I play best when i hear a good tone from my setup. it gets me pumped to play better. why risk not having that option?

I've always given myself a chance for "more me" in my monitors. Back when i used head and cab, (mesa express and 1x10 cab) i had a second 1x10 cab ran through a volume control that i could use to bring more of me into my area of the stage. So i had floor wedge for whole band monitor mix, and my cab right next to it. i could adjust some volume on it to sit right in the mix for me. I do the same with my FRFR solution. Great monitor mix, my output 2 is set at 0. but most of the time i'm too low in the mix as a "background guy" so i pump a little more me into my area and its great.

I don't understand how people get agitated over others buying nice things. I have 2 EV ZX-1's. they sound superb. They aren't that expensive($250-300 each). Are they the best sounding ever, probably not, but they work GREAT for what i want. So that is what I bought. if someone buys more expensive FRFR, good work, glad you can afford more and found what you were looking for at a higher price than me. I love the way I sound through mine, and it translates well to the mains each time as well. I guess i don't get jealous of others gear, allowing me peace in my gear and my choices. I also can use these for small acoustic gigs at coffee houses as mains or monitors, i run my completed mixes through them to test out on multiple listening platforms...that's why i love FRFR.
 
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