Why is De-Phase necessary?

I had to chime in here since I want to prevent fallacies.

dbun said:
what is going 'wrong' with the process that De-Phase becomes necessary?
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Nothing is wrong with the process. An IR extremely accurately simulates a mic'ed cabinet. De-phase is definitely not necessary. I don't use it.

It's all about the use case you're in. Like I said in the official de-phase thread I'm sure FRFR guys will find it a useful tool.

Are you more impressed with guitar sounds that you've heard on albums or are you more into guitar sounds you've heard in the room? If you're more impressed with the tones you've heard in a room then you can use de-phase to kind of simulate the feel of being in the room with a cabinet.

For line-in recorded tones for your band's music f.ex. you will not get "a more authentic" guitar tone by using de-phase. Phase is not a bad thing. It's a strength when used correctly. This doesn't mean that de-phase sounds bad. It doesn't mean it sounds good. It means that it changes things and I suggest you to use your ears to determine if you like it or not. I'm sure it can rescue some IRs and make them sound better.
 
vangrieg said:
Well, actually, if knowledge of how steering works doesn't help you drive your car, you don't have knowledge. Or, to be more precise, you don't have enough relevant knowledge. 99% of people, including those who understand why wheels turn when they turn their steering wheel, have no idea what Kamm circle is and how to balance their cars in a turn by steering, accelerating and braking, or why it is even necessary. This lack of knowledge, multiplied by horrible habits taught in driving schools all around the world, the manufacturers' desire to exploit this reluctance to know things and to make money, manifested in abundance of front-wheel drive cars and SUVs, leads to damage, injuries and deaths every second.

So that's really a bad example.
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It was actually a good example. As you pointed out in your third sentence, people who know how power steering works don't necessarily know how to steer optimally—which was precisely my point. Knowledge of the mechanism doesn't necessarily teach you how to use that mechanism. You don't calculate fluid pressures and tie rod angles when you steer around a corner.
 
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if the words "use your ears" were ever of any importance, than it's with the De-Phase parameter. to say "set and forget" is like saying always run your bass on 8, no matter which amp model you use. now that might work if your setup has virtually no bass to start with and you need to compensate, but if that's not the case, some models need to have bass on 2, others on 8. same goes for De-Phase.

I tend to prefer less "spiky" IRs to start with, so there really isn't that much that needs to be flattened or would benefit from too much flattening unless that's a desired sound. a little De-Phase just rounds things off nicely and actually makes it sound better, too much just kills it. higher settings may work if you're using spiky IRs through a system that brings those out even more. but again, to say "set and forget" is not gonna give you good results.

I can really recommend using X/Y and switching between 0 and higher settings and let your ears decide, but keep in mind, the next IR is not gonna work with the same setting...
 
So does dephase de-emphasize the effect of the microphone position used to produce the IR? (In other words, does it tend to suppress/lessen the differences between the same cab, speaker, and mic captured off axis, on axis, on center, off center, etc?)
 
FractalAudio said:
You don't listen to a guitar speaker with your ear against the grill cloth.
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This really is good good description of what I found the DEPHASE parameter to do. My experience is that setting it about 3.4-3.6 softens the cab in a pleasant way. Makes it appear to have a little more depth and tames some of the sharpness/harshness which can be heard when you set the DEPHASE back to 0 when you AB the results.

Really a nice, useful feature!
 
In my view, the comments about using your ears are spot on!
Why, because sounds at different mic spacing and from different sources of similar frequencies will "null" out changing the amplitude of some frequencies and therefore the tone.

Ever experimented using stereo in the CAB block and a delay on one. Changing the delay will change the tone you get for a given note.

What Cliff has done with the de-phaser is provide you with the ability to "correct" the tone that may be affected by a clash of the IR and the sound from your guitar. As for how much "de-phasing" is desirable, your ears away from the speaker!

To me, if you wish to have a range of tones from presets or use different IR's, a one size fits all is unlikely to always work. Let your ears tell you what works for the tune you are playing because with phasing, the tone may well change based on the note and which string is the source.

Looking forward to the CabLab inclusion.

De-Phase is an excellent feature so thanks again for your hard work Cliff and the team.
 
Perhaps it could be best described as somewhat analogous to i .... the square root of -1 ( as used in other areas of electrical theory).
Simple enough!
 
So, let me chime in here -- carefully, and with respect -- and say that I hear very little difference when using the de-phase parameter. I was very excited to try this parameter, but while I hear it do *something*, I'm not sure I could describe it, or pick a favorite setting.

Perhaps I just tend to use IR's where the effect is not very pronounced? Is that possible?

Maybe someone could recommend a specific IR that they have found unusable at first, and then with application of the de-phase parameter, they found it was significantly better? I'd love to really get to know this parameter better.
 
What volume are you playing at? There are many things that have only a very subtle effect when played at bedroom levels, but really come out with more volume.

Set eat up a preset with the cab of your choice. In the Cab block, set De-Phase to zero on the X side, and set it to maximum on the Y side. Play with a little volume while switching back and forth between X and Y. See what you think.
 
dbun said:
Yes - if the IR you are using is not heavily comb filtered to begin with, then it won't be very noticeable.
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+1. This exactly. My IRs always go through extensive testing that there's as little of that comb filtering effect as possible. That's probably the main reason I don't recommend de-phase with my IRs. I'm not saying that it doesn't work well with my IRs. I'm just saying that I take extra care making sure that my IRs work as they are so you don't need to fix them. Like Cliff said, you start losing character with de-phase. That's essentially what it does. There can be a bad character that you want to get rid of. There can also be a good character that you want to keep in your tone. Once again use your own ears. If you don't notice a big difference with de-phase then I suggest not using it.
 
VegaBaby said:
I tend to prefer less "spiky" IRs to start with, so there really isn't that much that needs to be flattened or would benefit from too much flattening unless that's a desired sound. a little De-Phase just rounds things off nicely and actually makes it sound better, too much just kills it.
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Yes, this is what I'm finding too...
 
If I'm improving the sound with De-Phase, I want that improvement to show up in FOH, too. ;)
 
De-phase has been a massive game changer for me.

I tend to play my Axe through headphones so as to not disturb the other half. I have always been fairly dissatisfied when dialing in tones with the stock IRs as everything just sounded sterile, lifeless and two dimensional...I even tried some IRs from credible producers, which did improve my tones, but not to the point where I was completely satisfied.

De-phase has changed all this for me now. I have found new love for my unit and a better workflow when dialing in tones, which you may find useful.

With De-phase cranked all the way up to 10.00 I find it enables me to hear the subtlest of changes to the AMP tone controls and therefore I am able to dial in a good balance fairly quickly without fatiguing my ears.
Once I am satisfied with the overall tonal balance of the AMP, I then back off the De-phase gradually to re-introduce some character of the original IR. Depending on the quality of IR and what my ears like, I usually end up between 5.00 and 7.00. Finally, I may revisit the AMP tone controls again to fine tune.

Too little De-phase and my tone sounds lifeless again...too much De-phase and I loose the character of the IR. So it's all about finding the sweet spot for me...

Stu.
 
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