Why Do People "Resist" Modelers?

[aleclee]

This morning, I was in an email conversation with some friends and the question came up of why people "resist" modelers. It was in the context of a discussion about how people who dislike "tweaking" might not be inclined to use modelers. I think it goes beyond that. I figured I'd share my thoughts and see what y'all consider to be the biggest reason people don't embrace digital guitar gear.

• Tradition. Nearly all "quality" guitar amps have had glowing bottles since the inception of electric guitar. The history of crappy SS amps & digital modelers has established a perception that tubes are the only way to glorious guitar tones. We all understand that but no discussion of impediments to modeler adoption is complete without its mention.
• Tweaking Styles. As I mentioned in an earlier email, most guitar forum types get off on tweaking their rigs in one way or another. Some churn through pedals, amps, or guitars. Others swap tubes & speakers. Still others get a black box and tap buttons and spin knobs. While it's all "tweaking" your rig in the pursuit of some golden tone, people have different preferred avenues for making those adjustments. Pedal whores don't necessarily obsess about which 12AX7 is in V1 while guys with huge tube stashes aren't necessarily going to fuss over which TS clone is the most transparent.
• Paradigm Shift. The AxeFx encourages you to think more like a producer than like a guitarist. Scott Peterson's video on parallel vs. serial effects would make a lot of non-digital guys' heads explode. It's about all some guys can do to figure out which effects go in the loop vs. in front. Give them a zillion routing options for dozens of amps and scores of effects and there are four likely reactions:
  • Fall to the floor and curl up in a fetal position over too many options
  • Start trying to run through every combination of blocks and parameters in search of golden toanz.
  • Set up a signal chain much like your physical rig.
  • Exclaim "Cool! I've always wanted to try something like this..." and try some wacky combinations.
• Signal Chain Understanding. IMO, this is the greatest factor and the least admitted. To effectively take advantage of modeler's capabilities and also to overcome whatever shortcomings they might have, you need to have a fundamental understanding of the signal chain. An awful lot of internet guitar players use corksniffer verbiage to describe sonic phenomenon of which they have no real clue. They are completely dependent upon the equipment builder to voice something that tickles the ear. That's part of why so many people churn through amps / cabs / pedals / tubes / speakers / cables / pickups. An awful lot of gearlust would go away if they'd just learn to use a graphic or parametric EQ. When someone gets an AxeFx and starts turning knobs for advanced parameters before they dial in gain, EQ, and pick a speaker cab, who's to blame for "endless tweaking"?
• Lost Gearlust. A lot of folks who might get a dopamine rush when the brown truck stops in front of the house miss that aspect of the tone chase when presented with a box that does it all. While geeks like me get jazzed about downloading new firmware to get new virtual amps and pedals, that doesn't necessarily do it for others.

Do you think this covers the reasons? Am I missing anything? Which do you think is the most common?

 

[Scott Peterson]

I'm going with paradigm shift mainly; but all your points have a LOT of validity.

 

[GM Arts]

Enjoyable post. You've covered a lot of valid ground IMHO.

Off the top of my head, I'd add another category about "perceived simplicity". It overlaps with most of your existing topics, but I think some folks feel uncomfortable without knobs they can't see and touch. Often the less the better.

 

[prometh]

I'm gonna go with "following the herd", because they're sheep and don't want to try something different unless it's popular enough to avoid getting laughed at.

 

[electronpirate]

Frankly, I feel like it's an elusive something that is missed in the modeling world.

Play yer fookin' guitar.

We obsess on the internet about various aspects of tone in either modeling OR toob's. But the majority of great guitarists DO NOT spend hours of time on chat boards chasing elusive 2k mids, or eliminating 'fizz'. They PLAY, and...wait for it...PLAY their guitars and squeeze tone out of even the most sonically challenged Gorilla amp they have. Anyone mainstream famous can use a tube amp because it's their JOB to play at volume. Most of us do not have that option all the time...nor do we want it. But I get that basement playa needs to say 'he does it...so shall I'.

All these years on these boards, and I've found countless folks saying 'I'm waiting for the next iteration of <insert modeler-firmware-guitar-tubeamp>'. Thinking this is going to be the 'game changer'. It's not (IMO). FWIW, I've heard firmware 2.nothin on Standard/Ultra recordings that have sounded better than some Axe-II 'professional' recordings of endlessly tweaked presets. I've heard better tone out of some random guy in Austin playing a crackling (clearly sick) Mesa 1-12 who blew 1/2 stack, 12 space rack guy out of the water.

If any of you have any doubts, I'll point to 2 artists (and there are many others.) Steve Stevens and Pete Thorn. They demo everything on the planet, but DAMN, they make each one sound great. How does that happen....?

They play their fookin guitars.

The Axe is a tool; as is a pedal, FX unit, tube amp, etc. Obsessing about whether the amp has glowing tubes or not is irrelevant. Can you play no matter what signal chain you have? THAT'S what people don't get.

I did not mean to run on...but I've had a bit of 12 year old Jameson on my Birthday here, and sadly, I'm moderating a slumber party of 6 eight year old girls while my wife sleeps...and I need something to do! Yes, my daughters (twins...) b-day overlaps with mine to my despair...

R

 

[sprint]

Many modellers (I've tried Zoom, 2 Boss GTs, Line6 HD, Digitech) simply don't have the great 'feel' that the AxeFx does. I don't know if it's latency or what but I don't feel as connected to the sound with many modellers as I do with AFX.

 

[willowdale]

Most folks simply don't think that modelers(even Axe2 or KPA) can measure up to a great tube amp for pure tone, vibe or image.

No iconic songs are really associated with any modelers in peoples mind.

There are no iconic guitar heroes who are legends because of their modeler tone. Hendrix, Page, Beck, Gibbons, Clapton, Gilmour, Blackmore & Van Halen etc.... are not gonna be replaced in anyone's mind any time soon by some modeler dude.

Modelers have come a long way & are extremely convenient, versatile & can sound great. The image of Rock n Roll they are not!!! lol

 

[henryrobinett]

Because most of them, besides Fractal and maybe that other one, suck.

 

[Rook]

I might add "early bad experiences". I remember the first line 6 amp that came in to my store; I think it was called the ax-212 or something. Man did that thing bite camel dong. Then the rep brought the first POD around. He showed me the "Rectifier sound". I said if i heard a rectifier sounding like that I would send it off to repairs (I was being tactful). He equivocated that part of why I dig the real recto sound was the tube power amp and 4x12 cab, so I supplied him with a Boogie 2:90 power amp and a Rectifier 4x12 and watched the dismal results. Then he told me it was unbeatable for DI, so I grabbed a sansamp pedal and made him a little more sad.

If that was my only experience with modellers, I would most definitely be playing through the glowing glass still.

BTW for the money, the POD XT was a pretty decent bit of gear.

 

[Solarfire]

Well I've went thru quite a few Modelers, never getting beyond the „Oh well, this one doesn’t suck as much as the last one“ sensation. The only one that got me halfway decent results (for my taste) was the Vox ToneLab SE, which I still have as a backup. I stumbled across the Axe in the Standard days (read reviews and so on) but didn’t go for it because I had given up on the Modeling technology and didn’t want to spend that kind of money to eventually end up with the same sensation described above. Some years later the Axe II crossed my path, started researching it again and this time decided to go for it (V6.02 then). Haven’t looked back since! I’m just so F**in glad I jumped on this evolutionary bandwagon, with the horsepower of this amazing and visionary piece of gear ripping down the road. I’ve decided not to close my mouth anymore because with every FW update the jaw drops again anyway, especially with V12 which is just superb. With the V12 I haven’t even gotten past the Friedmann HBE yet, been too busy just playing the hell out of it (just feels so f*%#in good).

Bottom line is, I have a background in Software and electronic engineering and used to engineer/build custom hardwired high-end tube amps. Unfortunately most tube amp rigs are more or less a one trick pony. Well, I think you all can guess the rest…

 

[MacOSatch]

For me, I simply like more "traditional" rig - tube amp and pedals for playing live/rehearsal. Tried few modelers (tried means had them for months/years) for example POD X3, Axe Ultra, Axe II. None of them could achieve the feel and sound of my tube amps (Suhr PT-100, Toneking Imperial, Diezel Hagen, ...). I put word "traditional" in quotes because the pedals that I use are digital stuff (eventide, strymon) but I like that they preserve the pure amp signal.

For serious recording I found that my amp + Torpedo give me the best results (especially regarding feel+sound).
For songwriting I use the usual plug-ins as Guitar Rig/Rammfire etc.

I think that a lot of people that use, or better to say buy, Axe - let me paraphrase the poster above - "... go with "following the herd", because they're sheep and ... it's popular enough ..."

After struggle with Axes (I really tried hard to love it for years) I lost the appetite for modelers, and I must say I play more and tweak less/none. But as you can see I am following the market because I like the concept to have effect+pedals+ ... in smaller package. And one day perhaps I will give the modeler the shot again (Kemper?).

 

[Sidivan]

Also, people are stupid.

At tonight's gig a guy came up to me and talked gear for 20 mins until he asked what we used. I told him that literally the entire band is digital and his response was "oh. I thought it sounded a little off". Yeah, I bet you did. That's why you came straight up to every member of the band and told us we were great. I'm sure it sounded terrible.

Some people still believe that glowing glass has a magical quality to it that science can't explain, which is total crap. We've known precisely what happens to sound inside a tube for decades, but because guitarists generally don't know what happens inside their amps. that must mean there's some tone pixie inside whose magical farts give tubes some special mojo that science can't recreate accurately... But only if you don't know what you're hearing is digital.

 

[Sted]

I always used Amplitube for home practice, it was convenient, quiet and sounded ok, I always played out with tube amps, they work, sound great and are consistent, I did try some line 6 stuff but it was clearly lacking. These things are different, I'm still learning but I can see the rewards every time I delve a little deeper, if I can get it sounding right live I'll be extremely happy.

If my flaming CLR ever turns up!

 

[hideous]

i don't worry about it to be honest. i like valve amps and digital unit too, for different things.
modeller is unbeatable when lots of different sounds are used & for easy recording of good sound (imo); valve amp is unbeatable when i only want one particular sound for playing live (imho).

 

[kmanick]

good original post but you missed one major group.
People who don't need all of the options that modeling provides.
I have quite few friends that gig regularly and use maybe 2 basic tones all night.
they don't really record much and probably use 3 maybe 4 pedals pedals.
They love the sound or their rigs and they are all set, they have no need or reason to switch to modeling.
Sometimes the arrogance on this forum and other forums of people who use modeling towards people who don't
is comical.
Tube amps didn't suddenly start to suck when the Axe FX came out and people who are not interested
are not sheep or stupid. (if anything those on the outside looking in may see much more of the sheep mentality here than you realize)
I've had several people who gig with 'traditional" rigs come by my house and check out my rig.
Some were very impressed , some weren't. the ones who don't record, were impressed but not enough
to throw away a rig that is already working perfectly for them.
The ones that do record showed a lot more interest (and my rig sounds f'n good)
I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade here as I love my Axe , but people,
take a reality pill those who use modelers are not pulling anything over on those who don't.
ElectronPirate makes a very valid observation.
My friends who were not all that impressed are not tweakers , they just want to plug in, dial the a couple of knob and actually play.
The guys who were impressed the least were also the guys that spend zero time on internet forums and just actually "play"

 

[Marcus Siepen]

I am absolutely with electronpirate, play your guitar and have fun. The Axe FX is a Tool to get my sound, just as my amps are nothing but tools to get my sound. If you are a good Player, you will be able to get a good sound out of any decent amp, without having it modded at the local custom Shop, you will get a good sound out of the Axe as well, again without twisting every Knob available, you will get a good sound out of the Kemper or whatever amp there is. If you are a bad player no amp on this planet will make you sound great, no matter how many tweaking options it offers. Play your guitars.

Gesendet von meinem Nexus 7 mit Tapatalk 4

 

[Scrumpy]

For me, the biggest difference between using an actual amp vs a modeler was the interaction/response; it (an amp) felt like a live thing that responded intimately with the touch on the instrument. Not just latency, but dynamics, etc. Some modelers did better or different things to represent this responsiveness, but nothing really seemed to encapsulate the whole ball of wax - until the axefx.

The other big thing the axefx did for me was open up my knowledge of what constitutes guitar tone. Having this little laboratory to experiment with and this community to get all kinds of other great information/wisdom; it just doesn't come from anywhere else that I know of.

 

[Moltenmetalburn]

Deaf from tube amps.

 

[EJ James (Street)]

I came from the rack gear scene back in the 80's and 90's. Yep, ADA MP1 + Alesis Quadraverb, hair metal scene (oh the irony of my avatar pic, 'eh? LOL =). Eventually I was running a Digitech GSP2101 Artist (v3.00 + PPC210) through a Marshall dual monoblock 50/50 into a Laney 4x12. I *really* missed that 2101 after I sold it and began my search for a decent replacement. Being a Digitech fan I was naturally predisposed to their line of modelers when they hit the scene in the early 2000's.

Enter the GNX3. I used that work horse in my home studio for many years. In 2005 I was a moderator for their community forums and was given a free GNX3000 as a thank-you/perk. Terribly disappointed with that unit I went back to my GNX3 and kept using it until recently. Back in 2011 I picked up a L6 Vetta II 2x12 combo + 2x12 exp cab. I intended to use it for small gigs, but never found an opportunity so it just collected dust. Fast forward to May of this year when I finally got around to updating it to the latest firmware and hooking it into my recording setup. I was BLOWN AWAY with some of the tones this thing could put out. IT IS (yes, IS, as in STILL) amazing in my opinion.

Keep in mind I've also had the L6 HD147, HD100, and Pod Pro XT. The 147 was a dismal failure in my opinion. Loud as hell, sure, but the effects chain just sucked donkey ballz. I mainly bought the Pod Pro XT as a bass preamp for a band I was in back in 2010 and never really considered it as an option for guitar after having one of the original kidney-bean units for a couple of weeks in the mid 2000's. The HD100 is pure ballz-to-the-wall, and I LOVED that amp. Unfortunately in a digital home studio (with no acoustically treated sound isolation room...yet!) you really can't crank an amp like that one without pissing off the neighbors, so it was relegated to use only in live situations in larger venues (pumped through a 1960A 4x12).

Back to my point....my GNX3 remained the primary tone source in my home studio for years, then I fell in love with my Vetta II. However I never stopped missing the flexibility of my old GSP2101 Artist Pro. A friend on a local musicians forum here in DFW (musicdfw.com) started talking about this amazing modeler he'd recently purchased, the Axe FX-II. He couldn't stop raving about its capabilities, so it piqued my interest. I researched it and nearly fell out of my chair when I realized the wanderlust over my long departed GSP unit was about to be sated. Then I got a look at the price and nearly feinted.

I pined over the AFII for months before I finally decided to just drop the hammer. "It's only money" and "you only live once" were my justifications. My wife knows how important my music and home studio are to me, so she was 100% on board with the investment.

Fast forward to ~4 weeks ago when my new baby arrived. I was SO excited. Plugged it in and started scrolling through the presets. I wasn't terribly impressed with anything in any of the 3 banks. Only a handful of the presets were even close to what I could get from any of my previous setups. Then I started tweaking with AxeEdit and all my concerns were allayed. Once again I was able to build a signal chain to meet every need, want, and desire, and THEN some.

I WAS IN LOVE AGAIN.

To the point, I think a lot of people are just stuck in a rut and not willing to try new things. I grew up playing through Marshalls, Roland's, Crates, and several other types of amp/cab combinations. I was open minded enough to try something new when modelers first came on the scene. Having used a preamp the caliber of the GSP unit and having comfort level with Digitech made it easy for me to try their modelers. I've never regretted experimenting, and consider myself very lucky, having had so many opportunities to try out various tech over the years.

That said, I'm completely and utterly tickled pink with my AFII today. I won't be selling off any of my other gear as it still has uses (and I'm a bit of a gear slut these days after unknowingly selling off some gear in the past that ultimately became VERY valuable).

Wow, that was a LOT longer than I intended. I'll shut up now.

[EDIT]
Spelling, grammar, punctuation, unfinished though removal, etc. My bad.

 

[Rexgtr]

I tried a few, amps that weigh too much aren't ideal for my back. The Line6Spider was a back breaker, a fellow guitarist raved about how he loves the tone so I bought and quickly returned it. The thing was I'd play a pinch harmonic and hear all this digital aliasing ugliness.
I also tried the Pod bean it got too hot to the touch I decided to return that as the sound was that great either.
All things BOSS and COSM = garbage tone.

Guitar Rig 3 thru 5 was really impressive, although I don't own a laptop. Since getting the Axe FX 2 I haven't used any of the software modellers.
Still liking my Peavey Vypyr 30 amp, light weight, loud enough to jam with a drummer and sounds pretty good.