Why can't 'amp in the room' feel be modelled?

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I wonder if anyone has built directional FRFR cabs? They wouldn't really have any use outside of guitar modeling though. The woofer's generally don't seem much different from the way they're mounted in guitar cabs, so I imagine its the tweeter that gives it the directionality.

Actually, aren't studio monitors supposed to be directional? wouldn't sitting off-axis to some large and loud studio monitors (or monitor) give you 'amp in the room' sound?
 
There is way more to it then just directionality...

...Its like trying to get your favorite CD to sound like "amp in room"

The AxeFx is producing the MIC'D guitar cab sound.

I wonder if anyone has built directional FRFR cabs? They wouldn't really have any use outside of guitar modeling though. The woofer's generally don't seem much different from the way they're mounted in guitar cabs, so I imagine its the tweeter that gives it the directionality.

Actually, aren't studio monitors supposed to be directional? wouldn't sitting off-axis to some large and loud studio monitors (or monitor) give you 'amp in the room' sound?
 
Surprisingly, the 'amp in the room' sound I have ever really enjoyed was hearing my rig coming through the main PA. Rehearsal rooms have always been less than ideal, and rocking the bedroom is lame. Never cared for the low-end emphasis w/ a single 4x12 or two 2x12s when they just hit the legs and stun-phaser the bar. It seems I've always been looking for what the AxeFX does best and what most have been complaining about - I will know in about a week - *STOKED*!!!
 
There are several Far Field IRs that are available in the Axe Cab block that will give you a closer approximation of the "amp-in-the-room" feel when using FRFR speakers. I used to use the JM IRs exclusively for a while because of that. But that won't give you necessarily the recorded sound you might want when recording or feeding the FOH PA which is normally achieved by close-mic'ing the cabinet.

The Far Field IRs are, IMO, slightly less "defined" which gives more readily the response associated by the amp sitting next to the player. It's a pleasant tone, but it's not mic'ed. And the free field response is quite different to the close mic'ed response.

I gradually weaned myself of the need for that particular response and moved to close-mic'ed IRs because they gave me better control of frequency response and therefore the mix.

I still sometimes resort to the JM IRs, specially the Factory 29 (I wish I had an Ultra-res version of that cab) which sounds scarcely like my old G12-65 in a Coyote cab when I use my rig without PA.

Disclaimer: All this is my personal take on this and none of this is backup up by science. Just perceptions. ;)
 
There are several Far Field IRs that are available in the Axe Cab block that will give you a closer approximation of the "amp-in-the-room" feel when using FRFR speakers. I used to use the JM IRs exclusively for a while because of that. But that won't give you necessarily the recorded sound you might want when recording or feeding the FOH PA which is normally achieved by close-mic'ing the cabinet.

The Far Field IRs are, IMO, slightly less "defined" which gives more readily the response associated by the amp sitting next to the player. It's a pleasant tone, but it's not mic'ed. And the free field response is quite different to the close mic'ed response.

I gradually weaned myself of the need for that particular response and moved to close-mic'ed IRs because they gave me better control of frequency response and therefore the mix.

I still sometimes resort to the JM IRs, specially the Factory 29 (I wish I had an Ultra-res version of that cab) which sounds scarcely like my old G12-65 in a Coyote cab when I use my rig without PA.

Disclaimer: All this is my personal take on this and none of this is backup up by science. Just perceptions. ;)

Which ones are those? I forget. I haven't tried that since the Standard days.

I have had some decent luck with running a 1x15 cab in parallel with the main cab at a low mix, just to try to get some of that thump in the sound.
 
I like the combination of factory cab 29 with factory cab 63 in a stereo block. That adds a bit of amp-in-the-room as well as it delivers a fat miced sound. That combination needs a mid boost then, since cab 63 is bit too bassy and the amp settings need some more highs and brightness. I like how it fills the room as well as it is ok in the mix and it is ok for the FOH techs.
 
Funny, 'amp in the room' was one of the problems I was looking to solve when I first got an Axe - they're too damn loud! :D

Before modelers, everyone was chasing "the recorded tone" for their live rigs.

Now that its possible to achieve a studio quality tone without racks of outboard gear and fragile / expensive microphones on the road, the cry out is for "amp in the room"... guitarists are picky SOB's aren't we? lol
 
Amp in the room is already there.

Fractal (Power amp modeling on / cab modeling off) -> Power amp -> Guitar cab.

Trust me, you will be done chasing the amp in the room.

If you are not using the above setup, I still believe it possible to create the "amp in the room" effect of a closed backed guitar cabinet. BUT it requires some high preset programming skills and custom (difficult to create and aquire) impulse responses (not a close miced IR) and a very good FRFR monitor like the CLR from Atomic.

Came here to say this. Well said.
 
Personally, I don't like the amplitude response to change when I move about the room. Nor do I like being stuck with one tone inherent in a guitar cab. Nor do I like experimenting endlessly with microphone selection/position, only to find that combination impossible to repeat.

To cap it off, I've never found a far-field IR that sounded like anything other than crap. I've solicited opinions to steer me to even a single one that I thought sounded great. No success so far.

To sum it up, "amp in the room" is something I've never liked, and I am glad I no longer have to deal with the inherent limitations of a guitar cab (which IMO is all "amp in the room means" when using the Axe). I can think of only a few instances in which I played through cabs where I was truly satisfied with every aspect of the tone. It was fun to play in front of a row of Marshall stacks that punched me every time I hit a chord, but even then, the disadvantages outweighed the advantages for me.
 
Completely disagree towards most of it. You know how i get the "feel" of an amp? I turn the volume up on my 500 Watt CLR Active Wedge, and guess what happens? BOOM< THUMP< AND FEEL! You need to move air, that's it, then even models will create the feel. You cannot expect "feel" to be magically there, "YOU NEED TO MORE AIR", and then you will get the individual feeling of each model. Some more than others, but its pretty dam great of a fake tone creating device - i.e. a modeler. I was an analog real amp guy for years, now i love this unit. But couldn't have a shitty speaker with it, you need to get top of the line FRFR, or you may miss the fun and feel.
 
There are several Far Field IRs that are available in the Axe Cab block that will give you a closer approximation of the "amp-in-the-room" feel when using FRFR speakers.

People always say something like that in threads like these.
But I have yet to hear a far-field IR (including Jay's.... especially Jay's) that sounds anything like a good cab in a decent room when monitored through an FRFR cab.

I actually think the OP has a point.

The state of the art tech we have now with mics, mic preamps, convolution, etc., just isn't up to the task of even coming close to recreating the sound of a good cab in a decent room, especially an open-back cab.
IMO Some sort of other approach, not based on mics or IRs, might be able to get us a bit closer.
I think that with a really advanced multi-band filter designed specifically for this purpose someone with enough patience might be able get himself quite a bit closer to the stated goal.

My own experience is that simple filter boxes like the H&K Red Box or the Palmer PDI can come pretty close to filtering out the relevant frequencies from a full range signal in such a way that an FRFR speaker is limited to the frequency range of a guitar speaker.
I.e. They make FRFR speakers sound like guitar speakers.
Of course there's a whole bunch of other things that these types of simple filter boxes don't do that always makes it feel like something is missing still.
But I do find that boxes like this come much closer than any IR of any mic on any cabinet that I've heard thus far.

I've gotten pretty close to duplicating this type of thing in the Axe myself using a few Filter Blocks and a PEQ Block.
But I don't really know what I'm doing so it's all hit and miss.
I think that if there was a dedicated multi-band PEQ effect (more than 5 bands) in the Axe where the 2 outer bands could have a very steep order LP or HP filter.
I think that having some additional time-based processing within this effect block might help in simulating the boxiness of a cab or the weird shit that comes out of the back of an open-back cab, etc.
But again, I don't really know what I'm talking about.
I'm just thinking out loud.

And I know that the first response to this suggestion is going to be from people telling me that this can already be done with the tools that are already in the box, and I do agree that that is true.
I've done much of this myself already.
But I still think a sophisticated powerful PEQ block dedicated specifically for this purpose would make the whole thing much easier and viable.
If an effect block like this uses a lot of CPU then it might be balanced out by the fact that you wouldn't need an Cab Block in your Presets.

Flame suit on....
 
I don't understand the resistance to using a power amp -> guitar cab setup?

Seems like a no-brainer to me and sounds incredible with the Fractal.

Before purchasing CLR monitors, that was my preferred live rig. Since the CLR's, I can play using IR's and feel like I am making no compromises in feel and playing experience.
 
I don't understand the resistance to using a power amp -> guitar cab setup?

Seems like a no-brainer to me and sounds incredible with the Fractal.

Before purchasing CLR monitors, that was my preferred live rig. Since the CLR's, I can play using IR's and feel like I am making no compromises in feel and playing experience.

I really want to try that setup, but frankly, I'm just too lazy to do it. Everything sounds incredible through my monitors :)
 
Amp in the room is already there.

Fractal (Power amp modeling on / cab modeling off) -> Power amp -> Guitar cab.

Trust me, you will be done chasing the amp in the room.

If you are not using the above setup, I still believe it possible to create the "amp in the room" effect of a closed backed guitar cabinet. BUT it requires some high preset programming skills and custom (difficult to create and aquire) impulse responses (not a close miced IR) and a very good FRFR monitor like the CLR from Atomic.


+1

Yep I was fixin to say that with "my" 2 CLR's stacked and in "BackLine" mode using "my" ears Ive got a killer guitar amp. Ok maybe it sounds a little better than that ;) but you get the point... And just so you know Im near 60 years young and played since I was 12 or 13... Lots and Lots and LOTS of combos, open and closed backs and a few stacks to compare this to. For my ears its not ever been as good as this, period.
 
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Well, the first year I had the same problem with "the amp in the room" when I bought 2 matrix Q12A's - I went back to my 2x12 Marshall and 2x12 Orange cabs - but when I played in a full little club (60 peoples) and got lost without beeing miked up in this small club. I had as a side monitor for me one Matrix Q12A hooked up. I've turned the Matrix around up front to the audience and turned up the volume and played everything away. It was amazing how it did cut trough the mix and people loved my tone. The end of all this now, I can't play really anymore with tube amps - I love the perfect sound with all the FX with my axe. What I wanted to say is - it takes a while and you get used to it and one day you realise you won't miss it again.
 
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