Why can't 'amp in the room' feel be modelled?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Raab90 said:
I disagree as well.

To get the amp in the room feel, I just crank my speakers loud.
I get all the pushy air on my back and my body vibrating to the wabbling sound of the decaying sustained riff and blah blah

I don't miss a single thing of having a tube amp in front of me.
Click to expand...

That's me. I have a pair of CLR's on sticks, and I'll tell you what: the amp is definitely in the room. Crank those bad boys up and you know something's happening. They'll tear your head off.

Now, if somebody wants to come and model my room, that's ok. Maybe that's the next frontier. Although, I'll tell you up front, it's not much to write home about.
 
When I first got an Ultra I wanted to get the sound of my 4x12 when listening a few feet away so I setup the AFX amp -> output 1 to monitors with a cab block/IRs, output 2 to a power amp to my 4x12 (no cab IR), sat in front of them and pointed directly at my head, and mixed/processed IR's going back and forth between the two outputs.

I got an IR mix that was about 90% of the overall tone of the 4x12 and thru monitors was pretty 'amp-like -> 4x12 in the room' in under an hour. It was certainly more difficult to process/mix IR's back then and the quality was nowhere near like we are getting today but I felt the mix was more then 'good enough' to duplicate the sound of the 4x12 and found it pretty quickly.

I realized fairly soon afterward that I could create 'better' sounding custom 'cabs' and never felt the need to do that again.

Current IR tech has advanced to the point where it feels like your playing thru a guitar cab using close mic-ed IR's/tones that are in some ways better then an actual cab, for me anyway.
 
Last edited:
IR's really don't have much to do with it. They don't relay any of the captured speakers dispersion characteristics. "Amp in the room" boils down to one thing, room reflections. That is completely dependent on the physical speakers used to reproduce the sound and the physical space in which they are placed, two things that vary hugely from one Axe user to another. It's mostly the beamy nature of guitar cabinets compared with full range pa style cabinets that have much wider dispersion characteristics. We become very accustomed to that room interaction and often hear it as part of the amp's tone. Folks that use traditional guitar cabs with the Axe can retain that familiar room vibe, but often at the cost of tonal flexibility. If you want the same sort of room interaction, you have to use speakers that interact with the room in the same way as traditional guitar cabs, i.e. beamy and directional. Different cabs will give you different flavors of room interaction. I suppose someone could invent a modeling speaker cabinet that would physically change its dispersion pattern. Personally, I say good riddance to the beamy nature of guitar cabs. It's annoying. "I can't hear myself anymore...! Oh yeah, I walked 3 feet to the left on stage!"
 
barhrecords said:
impulse responses (not a close miced IR) and a very good FRFR monitor like the CLR from Atomic.
Click to expand...

These days for FR, the IR is everything to me. Surprisingly some of my favorite IR's have been the user uploaded ones on Axe-Change. I succinct way to say all of this, we don't hear with our ears we hear with our brains.
 
This topic comes up a lot as noted.

I am with Cliff and others here. Get any decent power amp and a guitar cab.
Sounds really good to me and is a really simple setup.
 
lqdsnddist said:
Not arguing with you that its a great sound, but what do you do when you want to record a track ?
Click to expand...

recording: guitar -> Axe -> USB -> Logic Pro
the Axe records beautifully this way
we all know this already
but when I'm recording, I'm not fussed about playing through my cabs..
and to be honest, if I did mic my own cabs and record in the studio, I doubt I'd achieve the same quality as recording direct
but I'm totally ok with this..

lqdsnddist said:
Likewise, what do you do when you play a venue that requires you to mic your cab ? I suppose one could still use a real cab as a stage monitor, but then regardless of if your using mic'd cab or IR's, the FOH guitar tone is going to be different than how your hearing it on stage. That personally would drive me crazy.
Click to expand...

I've never played a place where my cabs were not mic'd.. this is normal for me..
I never use IR's live.. I don't care what comes out of the FoH.. it's not my job..
I just want to sound and feel great to satisfy only me on stage.. that means I'll be best placed to deliver my best possible performance..

lqdsnddist said:
Likewise, how are your band mates hearing you if they are far off axis from your sweet spot with how you monitor your cabs ?
Click to expand...

they hear me through the monitors on stage..
this is just normal stuff.. nothing new or clever..

lqdsnddist said:
Basically the only real benefit, and yes it can be a good one, to the "amp in room" thing, as far as I've been able to figure out, is that it sounds good for the guitarist. Doesn't sound as good for the audience, doesn't translate to tape, often doesn't sound as good for other band members (volume wars anyone ? lol), and isn't going to be consistent night after night, unless the amp really is in your room or you play the exact same venues.
Click to expand...

what the audience hear is not my job.. I have no control over it and so I don't worry about it..
my job is rocking' and-a rollin'
if I feel great and comfortable that's all that matters to me..
and of course I'd imagine the audience would rather see / hear a happy Clarky doing all the things Clarky's do..

lqdsnddist said:
As I've said, if you just play at home, and never record your music, then amp in room is pretty ideal....
Click to expand...

last gig I played was an open air festival overseas..

lqdsnddist said:
But what do all you guys who do enjoy getting "amp in room" do when its time to lay some tracks down ?
Click to expand...

being in the same room as the cabs and enjoying how wonderful it sounds and feels is not the same as being in a recording environment..
I was simply stating what I like / prefer..
I love being in a big space with my backline cranked.. cos it's a beautiful feeling..
however, that don't mean that when my rig is in the studio and I'm sat in the control room that all of a sudden I can't play..
sure it's a different feeling.. and for me personally a less satisfying one.. but I still do my thing none the less..
 
GazzaBloom said:
Yet, we hear that using this technology via FRFR does not recreate the amp in the room feel.
Click to expand...

If I understand, "in the room" is to run the Axe-FX with no cabinet simulation and through a real linear power amp and a real 4x12 cabinet (for example).

If you run an Axe-FX with cabinet simulation and powered FRFR speakers, you'll probably be able to tell (vs. a real amp in the room), if you try hard enough. But, in exchange, you get tremendous flexibility, in the sense that you can also mix in drum tracks, your laptop, etc., and it will sound great.

Why do you even care about "in the room" sound, when nearly anything will ultimately be recorded and come out of stereo speakers? Indeed, over time, I have grown to prefer the sound of playing through "studio monitors," as I'm so used to it, and my guitar sounds like all of the other guitars that I listen to all of the time on recordings. I also note that if one uses headphones or in-ear monitors, there will also be no "in the room" experience.
 
... evil people might suggest that your "Amp in the room" feel is nothing else but Reverb. But these are all but conspiracy theories on the scale of 9/11.
 
barhrecords said:
Amp in the room is already there.

Fractal (Power amp modeling on / cab modeling off) -> Power amp -> Guitar cab.

Trust me, you will be done chasing the amp in the room.

If you are not using the above setup, I still believe it possible to create the "amp in the room" effect of a closed backed guitar cabinet. BUT it requires some high preset programming skills and custom (difficult to create and aquire) impulse responses (not a close miced IR) and a very good FRFR monitor like the CLR from Atomic.
Click to expand...

This sounds very logical in theory. It makes perfect sense as a point. In practice however, This has never sounded anywhere near as good as:

Fractal(Power amp modeling on/cab modeling off) -> tube power amp -> Guitar cab.

I've dialed parameters for many days and nights, years now really. I've A/B'd beyond reason. I've owned my axe for more than 3 years. Cliff has always stated this is not correct, but my ears don't agree.

I did purchase a Fryette Power Station recently and it employs a series tube amp signal path so maybe I'm not entirely wrong. The applications are quite different but have that basic concept employed with regards to a tube amp running into a tube amp. The Fryette is a dummy load as opposed to the Fractal's amp modeling of course.

FYI-The Fryette is outstanding in my opinion. It really does what its supposed to. Better than any other attenuator I've ever heard and I've heard several like Palmer, THD etc... What a unit!!! Fryette has manged to produce a reactive dummy load while avoiding Aspen Pitman's patents. Very impressive according to my resident Cliff like engineering pal. Off topic I know sorry.....As you were :lol
 
Im beyond happy with the tones Im getting out of the Axe Fx through my 2 QSC K10s. I have them separated about 15 feet apart.. amazing stereo sound.
 
I don't get why this is still a debate. 'Amp in the room' is there!!! Just plug the Axe into a power amp and gtr speaker (turn off cab modelling and usually power amp modelling). Job done!

The IRs model 'miked up' cabs. There's a difference.

A CLR or similar might get you close with tweaking.....but you could likely buy a decent power amp and gtr speaker for the same price or less.

I rock a Matrix PA with a Zilla 2x12 open back cab........couldn't be happier!
 
Stadanko said:
This sounds very logical in theory. It makes perfect sense as a point. In practice however, This has never sounded anywhere near as good as:

Fractal(Power amp modeling on/cab modeling off) -> tube power amp -> Guitar cab.

I've dialed parameters for many days and nights, years now really. I've A/B'd beyond reason. I've owned my axe for more than 3 years. Cliff has always stated this is not correct, but my ears don't agree.

I did purchase a Fryette Power Station recently and it employs a series tube amp signal path so maybe I'm not entirely wrong. The applications are quite different but have that basic concept employed with regards to a tube amp running into a tube amp. The Fryette is a dummy load as opposed to the Fractal's amp modeling of course.

FYI-The Fryette is outstanding in my opinion. It really does what its supposed to. Better than any other attenuator I've ever heard and I've heard several like Palmer, THD etc... What a unit!!! Fryette has manged to produce a reactive dummy load while avoiding Aspen Pitman's patents. Very impressive according to my resident Cliff like engineering pal. Off topic I know sorry.....As you were :lol
Click to expand...

Glad you found something you like! :)

(I never said SS vs. tube in regards to power amps.)
 
Getting the amp-in-the-room feeling/experience/tone from a power amp + guitar cabs rig isn't the issue.

Getting that sound/feel/tone from an FRFR monitor is the issue.
 
I use mine the same way with power amp em on...sounds great!
Stadanko said:
This sounds very logical in theory. It makes perfect sense as a point. In practice however, This has never sounded anywhere near as good as:

Fractal(Power amp modeling on/cab modeling off) -> tube power amp -> Guitar cab.

I've dialed parameters for many days and nights, years now really. I've A/B'd beyond reason. I've owned my axe for more than 3 years. Cliff has always stated this is not correct, but my ears don't agree.

I did purchase a Fryette Power Station recently and it employs a series tube amp signal path so maybe I'm not entirely wrong. The applications are quite different but have that basic concept employed with regards to a tube amp running into a tube amp. The Fryette is a dummy load as opposed to the Fractal's amp modeling of course.

FYI-The Fryette is outstanding in my opinion. It really does what its supposed to. Better than any other attenuator I've ever heard and I've heard several like Palmer, THD etc... What a unit!!! Fryette has manged to produce a reactive dummy load while avoiding Aspen Pitman's patents. Very impressive according to my resident Cliff like engineering pal. Off topic I know sorry.....As you were :lol
Click to expand...
 
mr_fender said:
This is correct to a certain point.
Click to expand...
To a certain point? It's literally the only point.
It's completely beyond me why people have been chasing the "Amp in the room" sound with modellers forever, but always ignore the damn room in the equation.

If you want the "amp in the room" sound, how about adding the room for a change? There is a reason farfield IRs (and "backside" IRs) exist.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom