Why are Petrucci rhythm sounds so hard to nail?

V

VidarAus

Experienced
Hi gang,

Why are Petrucci rhythm sounds so hard to nail?

Honestly - I want to know. Does it come down to his technique alone?

The thing is, coping his clean and lead tones is pretty easy. In fact, I would go so far as saying you would have to be trying if you wanted to mess up a MKIV or iic+ lead tone with the Axe. You just whack in the amp and a cab (stock or redwirez) turn a couple knobs, maybe add a PEQ and you are there. Even without any tweaking it sounds pretty amazing for leads.

Now you are probably going to say - 'yeah, well you do the same thing for a rhythm tone too'. But for the life of me, I can't nail his tone no matter what I do. I haven't found anyone nail it on this forum yet either.

It is frustrating me to no end. I have tried all the tips and tricks on the forum.

What are we doing wrong fellas?
 
i don't know the answers here, but my input is that his technique has a part to play in it, also i believe recording in a large room is a factor, he says it himself that recording in smaller rooms makes his sound "not right"
 
I play through studio monitors, in an acoustically treated room in a small house. This means the volume is never very high.

I am starting to think that visceral impact, and the interaction of speakers and guitar at high volumes may be more important for tight, heavy rhythm sounds than it is for leads or cleans. I know it is important for all electric guitar sounds, but perhaps more for heavy rhythm?

Anyways, after a lot of tweaking here is the best petrucci style rhythm patch I can come up with. It is not bad by any means (and tons closer than I ever got with a POD - lol!) but is still missing something. It is a bit muffled perhaps (like it needs to be brought forward somehow) and also is just a touch too fizzy.

[attachment=0:14bdla5d]Mark iic+ Heavy Rhythm.syx[/attachment:14bdla5d]

I am using an Axe-FX standard, Ibanez 2550 with Air Norton in neck and D-Sonic in the bridge, going direct to Saphire Pro 40 and into studio monitors.

I know that patches rarely translate directly to someone else's gear, but feel free to see what you think and provide feedback.

Thanks guys,

VidarAus
 

Attachments

  • Mark iic+ Heavy Rhythm.syx
    2 KB · Views: 264
I think there's a lot of difference between album sound and live sound. Studio recordings are checked by Petrucci himself and also by the sound engineer. If you see some videos recordered in studio environnement you can notice that the basic sound comes up by some amp he use and some effect is added in real time during his recording sessions ad ex. delay. I think that most of his sound is adjusted to fit best in the mix. After that there's a transposed version of the final sound to his gear. Every time i've seen him during a live the guitar was not the same as the cd. Sometimes near....sometimes far from the original sound. in both cases slightly differnt from the cd.

An important thing is the way he records all the guitars. In the studio Petrucci can record multiple guitar layers.....so what you ear when you listen a DT cd is a beautiful sound made by 3....4.....5 or who knows how many guitars plays the same riff. Every guitar with some changes in the eq and in the amp section. As always keep in mind that a good rhytm sound isn't made by a single guitar with drive all the way up. Most of the time a light distortion could improve your sound. A large amount of his sound come up from his finger and his technique. So, if you can play clean most of the job is done. A drive master crancked all the way up masks all the mistakes ;)

i'm not a tech, this is only my personal opinion about this ..... peace
 
....also guitar is a focal point. I want to share my experience..

I play a lots of Vai stuff and yes i've a 2550 with evo wired exactly as my withe jem. Both with evos but they sounds slightly different. The last important thing is the guitar. All the guitar masters plays with modded guitars. Like every driver with his car or bike. The base version is the same but inside there's a world of difference. Plus they have specialized tech for a premium setup for all the gear :)
 
VidarAus said:
....coping his clean and lead tones is pretty easy. In fact, I would go so far as saying you would have to be trying if you wanted to mess up a MKIV or iic+ lead tone with the Axe. You just whack in the amp and a cab (stock or redwirez) turn a couple knobs, maybe add a PEQ and you are there. Even without any tweaking it sounds pretty amazing for leads.
Click to expand...

The thing is, for the most part (at least live) his rhythm tone is his lead tone, just with a little less gain and delay. If your lead tone is no good for rhythm, then you might not have it down as much as you think. My main Mark IV lead patch is great for rhythm. I modeled it and it sounds pretty close to Petrucci's tone on the live Liquid Tension Experiment DVDs:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fZuX_Q9ruk
 
shredi knight said:
VidarAus said:
....coping his clean and lead tones is pretty easy. In fact, I would go so far as saying you would have to be trying if you wanted to mess up a MKIV or iic+ lead tone with the Axe. You just whack in the amp and a cab (stock or redwirez) turn a couple knobs, maybe add a PEQ and you are there. Even without any tweaking it sounds pretty amazing for leads.
Click to expand...

The thing is, for the most part (at least live) his rhythm tone is his lead tone, just with a little less gain and delay. If your lead tone is no good for rhythm, then you might not have it down as much as you think. My main Mark IV lead patch is great for rhythm. I modeled it and it sounds pretty close to Petrucci's tone on the live Liquid Tension Experiment DVDs:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fZuX_Q9ruk
Click to expand...
That's exactly what I don't know how to do. The closer I get to a decent rhythm patch, the less usable it is for lead and vice versa. Would like do know what I do wrong :)
 
torkolort said:
That's exactly what I don't know how to do. The closer I get to a decent rhythm patch, the less usable it is for lead and vice versa. Would like do know what I do wrong :)
Click to expand...


I just know what works for me. What I like may not sound good to you at all.

Here's a clip of my Mark IV tone. I'm in the process of completely re-working this patch, trying to get it more beefy and thicker on the notes and not quite as bright (and it's sounding even better than this one was), but this is a fair representation of what I try to get in an all around high gain tone. The clip is just the audio extracted from a video shot with a digital camera (basically it's like your basic youtube amp demo video that someone did in their living room, but without a picture :mrgreen: ). It does the tone no justice at all, but gives you an idea what it sounds like in the room. Ignore the clams and sloppy playing. I had just gotten back from a 3 week road trip and had only been playing again for a couple of days. This was recorded at reasonably low volume (you can hear the acoustic sound of my pick hitting the strings) out my studio monitors:



(Direct download link.)


https://www.yousendit.com/directDownloa ... RmM2aXU1dg
 
Despite the quality of the recording, I'd say that's a pretty sweet tone. I agree it's a little bright, are you using Music Man JP? Would you mind sharing your patch when you're done reworking it?
 
torkolort said:
Despite the quality of the recording, I'd say that's a pretty sweet tone. I agree it's a little bright, are you using Music Man JP? Would you mind sharing your patch when you're done reworking it?
Click to expand...


Thanks. It's a Carvin DC127C, with Dimarzio Tone Zone (bridge) & Air Norton (neck) humbuckers.

I think it sounds a little brighter in the clip than it actually does (did), but I do like a somewhat bright tone. I can't stand for my tone to be dark or muddy sounding. It has to be clear and have a nice sizzle on the top. It's a constant battle with the Tone Zone though because it is a pretty dark sounding, low mid heavy pickup. Trying to get a perfectly balanced tone with it, but without it sounding muddy or overly bright, is a bit of a challenge. The Air Norton is easy to deal with. If the Tone Zone is sounding good, it usually is too (and of course, you can't help but sound like Petrucci with it).

I'll see about uploading the patch after I'm finally done working on it (keep in mind though that I've technically been working on this tone for 3 years now :lol: ).
 
Thanks for everyone pitching in here. I have gotten a lot out of the discussion.

I will go back and look at my lead tones, and see if they are decent for Rhythm (crazy I know, but didn't think to try that first :roll:).

I must say though, the Andromeda lead patch does not sound good for rhythm to my ears (and it is fantastic for leads) - go figure.

It is the only sticking point with me and my axe GREAT rhythm tones. Getting good is easy - making it great it hard.

It could come down to sloppy technique though.
 
shredi knight said:
torkolort said:
That's exactly what I don't know how to do. The closer I get to a decent rhythm patch, the less usable it is for lead and vice versa. Would like do know what I do wrong :)
Click to expand...


I just know what works for me. What I like may not sound good to you at all.

Here's a clip of my Mark IV tone. I'm in the process of completely re-working this patch, trying to get it more beefy and thicker on the notes and not quite as bright (and it's sounding even better than this one was), but this is a fair representation of what I try to get in an all around high gain tone. The clip is just the audio extracted from a video shot with a digital camera (basically it's like your basic youtube amp demo video that someone did in their living room, but without a picture :mrgreen: ). It does the tone no justice at all, but gives you an idea what it sounds like in the room. Ignore the clams and sloppy playing. I had just gotten back from a 3 week road trip and had only been playing again for a couple of days. This was recorded at reasonably low volume (you can hear the acoustic sound of my pick hitting the strings) out my studio monitors:



(Direct download link.)


https://www.yousendit.com/directDownloa ... RmM2aXU1dg
Click to expand...

Good job with the clip Shredi. Even with th way it was recorded it is a bit too bright from my taste but it does sound chunky and cool!

Just had a listen to the LTE youtube link you posted. That is a GREAT tone. Am going to sit down now and see if I can copy it with my gear.

If only I could copy he technique as well :) Maybe if I spent more time practising than tweaking the Axe my tone would actually improve on its own!!
 
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_so ... ID=9360921

I'm pretty sure I got close enough. That's a Mark IV tone though. I always thought the IIC+ was a sh*tty version of the IV.

A VERY SIMPLE PATCH. With the right guitar (JP6), USA LEAD 1 and Recto 2 cab there isn't much that can go wrong. :) I used the PEQ after the amp at 750hz -5.95dB 0.707Q

I'm using the same patch for both lead and rhythm. If I was trying to nail that LTE tone I'd cut some of the presence like JP did.
 
Well, after going back to the drawing board I think I may finally have begun to 'crack' this.

The answer for me - 'AIR' and 'PEQ'

Sounds simple enough but I never really tried experimenting with the AIR Cab parameter. If you set it fairly low (like 1000-2000) and crank that puppy up it can achieve that mellowness in Petrucci's LTE rhythm sound.

And then if you add a PEQ after the cab and hunt around the different frequencies, you can take the annoying 'fizz' out of this amp that seems to usually sit there.

I now think that the PEQ after the cab block to shape the sound is SO IMPORTANT there should be an entry in the WIKI or a sticky made or something. For me, it is becoming that important.

I will upload my patch for people to try in just a moment.

VidarAus
 
OK, here is my current take on Petrucci's LTE rhythm tone. This is the closest I have ever got. I am actually really happy with it, and am happy to end my tone search here for a while :shock:

I would like to get feedback from others, but as always things might sound stupid on other peoples equipment without some tweaking.

Anyways, let me know what you think.

[attachment=0:1sdat1zz]Mark iic+ Rhythm LTE.syx[/attachment:1sdat1zz]
 

Attachments

  • Mark iic+ Rhythm LTE.syx
    2 KB · Views: 197
VidarAus said:
Hi gang,

Why are Petrucci rhythm sounds so hard to nail?

Honestly - I want to know. Does it come down to his technique alone?

The thing is, coping his clean and lead tones is pretty easy. In fact, I would go so far as saying you would have to be trying if you wanted to mess up a MKIV or iic+ lead tone with the Axe. You just whack in the amp and a cab (stock or redwirez) turn a couple knobs, maybe add a PEQ and you are there. Even without any tweaking it sounds pretty amazing for leads.

Now you are probably going to say - 'yeah, well you do the same thing for a rhythm tone too'. But for the life of me, I can't nail his tone no matter what I do. I haven't found anyone nail it on this forum yet either.

It is frustrating me to no end. I have tried all the tips and tricks on the forum.

What are we doing wrong fellas?
Click to expand...


can you pass on the cleans and leads you have :D
 
I can't gives you the cleans as I am still working on them a bit :) But I will do when I have them done.

As for the lead, I still use the original Andromeda Lead patch posted by Marco a long time ago. It was created on firmware 8 or something and without tweaking anything, it still sounds just like JP's lead tone to my ears.

Having said that, I have just today started playing with the AIR parameter on this patch and damn if it doesn't sound even better now. Check out the patch below and see what I did with the AIR parameter in the CAB block.

Basically I set it to about 1400hz or something and cranked that puppy up to like 76%. Try it out as is, and then back of the AIR parameter to 0%. Then try it back on 76% again. Can you hear the smoothness this adds to the tone?

I can't believe one little control can have such a huge impact! I am really excited by this.

I would love people's feedback (no pun intended ;) ) on if they too experience this increase in fluid, smoothness.

OMG. If it were legal in my country to marry the AXE-FX I would.

Here's the lead patch to play with (credit to Marco as this is his original patch unaltered except for the AIR parameter).
 

Attachments

  • Andromeda Lead AIR.syx
    2 KB · Views: 152
Clark Kent said:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_songInfo.cfm?bandID=1054252&songID=9360921

I'm pretty sure I got close enough. That's a Mark IV tone though. I always thought the IIC+ was a sh*tty version of the IV.

A VERY SIMPLE PATCH. With the right guitar (JP6), USA LEAD 1 and Recto 2 cab there isn't much that can go wrong. :) I used the PEQ after the amp at 750hz -5.95dB 0.707Q

I'm using the same patch for both lead and rhythm. If I was trying to nail that LTE tone I'd cut some of the presence like JP did.
Click to expand...

Great song :D
 
I've finished reworking my Mark IV patch and couldn't be happier with it. I also finally got rid on my muddy Dimarzio Tone Zone and put a D-Sonic in it's place. I really love this pup. Tight bass, punchy (but not muddy) mids, and really sweet highs. Anyway, I made a short clip. Again, the clip is just the audio extracted from a video shot with a digital camera, with my Axe FX at low volume through my studio monitors, so keep that in mind.

Since recording this clip, I did make one significant change in how I am setting the gain between the drive block and the amp sim, but I really couldn't hear much difference in how this clip sounded vs one I made since the change (and my playing sucked in that clip anyway :mrgreen: ):


(Direct download link.)

https://www.yousendit.com/directDownloa ... RmM2aXU1dg
 
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