Where did we get to on fixing the "chugg" on Mark series models?

V

VidarAus

Experienced
Hi all,

I have been away from the forum from ages and wondered if anyone could bring me up to speed on where we got to with getting the trademark mesa 'chugg' sound when palm muted heavy rhythms? Mikko from @ML SOUND LAB describes it best here: https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/dialling-in-the-usa-iic.142085/page-2

I love the mark series models in the Fractal gear, but no matter what I seem to do I can't seem to get the percussive "chugg" of the palm mutes right in a patch (eg. using the C++ or Triaxis LD2Y). Otherwise, they are spot on for me!

Thanks
 
This is the main issue I have with Mark series models. Stock the low end is boomier than my real Mark series amps - I don't want to say anything bad about those amp models because they're awesome. I've spent a lot of time getting that palm mute as close as possible to the real 1984 IIC+ and my Mark V. Also the GEQ is very different on these real life amps. This is why I made Amp Packs of them: www.ml-sound-lab.com
 
ML SOUND LAB said:
This is the main issue I have with Mark series models. Stock the low end is boomier than my real Mark series amps - I don't want to say anything bad about those amp models because they're awesome. I've spent a lot of time getting that palm mute as close as possible to the real 1984 IIC+ and my Mark V. Also the GEQ is very different on these real life amps. This is why I made Amp Packs of them: www.ml-sound-lab.com
Click to expand...

How do those models compare the Mark Series models in your Petrucci pack?
 
ML SOUND LAB said:
This is the main issue I have with Mark series models. Stock the low end is boomier than my real Mark series amps - I don't want to say anything bad about those amp models because they're awesome. I've spent a lot of time getting that palm mute as close as possible to the real 1984 IIC+ and my Mark V. Also the GEQ is very different on these real life amps. This is why I made Amp Packs of them: www.ml-sound-lab.com
Click to expand...

Thanks for chiming in Mikko. No disrespect to all of the great products you create, but I was hoping that this sort of thing would not come at a price. One would think that this would be baked into the models or if there are a few tweaks in the advanced amp parameters this would be discussed openly by those who have found it. I really like the work you do Mikko, but sometimes I feel like the fractal ecosystem has become too much a platform for third-party money making.
 
VidarAus said:
Thanks for chiming in Mikko. No disrespect to all of the great products you create, but I was hoping that this sort of thing would not come at a price. One would think that this would be baked into the models or if there are a few tweaks in the advanced amp parameters this would be discussed openly by those who have found it. I really like the work you do Mikko, but sometimes I feel like the fractal ecosystem has become too much a platform for third-party money making.
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He put in a lot of work to get that magic - why do you feel it's owed to you for free?

The tools are there. Maybe you can put the work in to figure it out and then you can share it?
 
unix-guy said:
He put in a lot of work to get that magic - why do you feel it's owed to you for free?

The tools are there. Maybe you can put the work in to figure it out and then you can share it?
Click to expand...

This is a valid viewpoint which can also be argued. I am not trying to start a war here, just a friendly discussion. I just remember the forum of old (a long time ago) before there was a lot of third party commercialization and lots of free sharing of parameter tweaks - although yes there is still a lot of that happening too. New products like an IR, are in a different category in my mind I guess. Again, one could argue that we are better for it as we now have more choice (no one is forcing anyone to buy anything afterall).

Anyway, my main point is that the Mark Series amps are just so great in the Fractal, except for the "chugg". I guess I just wish this was already baked in so they were perfect :)
 
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VidarAus said:
This is a valid viewpoint which can also be argued. I am not trying to start a war here. I just remember the forum of old (a long time ago) before there was a lot of third party commercialization. Again, one could argue that we are better for it as we now have more choice (no one is forcing anyone to buy anything).

The Mark Series amps are just so perfect in the Fractal, except for the "chugg". I guess I just wish this was already baked in.
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I think it's great how much is shared... Quite a lot of free stuff on this forum, including from Mikko.
 
Wasn't the 'chug' characteristic on some amps (especially the Mark series) one of the improvements Cliff made when he figured out new algorithms for the Axe Fx III 5.0X update??? I remember there was a big fuzz about it. Sadly, it seems more and more unlikely for those upgrades to find their way to the AX8. :disappointed:
 
Yeah it actually takes a lot of time to create these dynamically and EQ-wise matching presets. If you would've asked me if I ever planned on selling presets a year ago I would've said no. I just had one of those light bulb moments one day when I was really trying to nail my Mark V tone with the Axe-Fx III and the results were incredible - I shared the presets to some of my friends and the feedback was essentially that they've never gotten this authentic Mark sounds with their modelers. I would say it's about 2-3h of hardcore tweaking per preset so I probably wouldn't do it "just for fun" with the limited time that I have. Here's a pretty good demo where I intentionally show off how authentic that palm mute is in these packs:



Essentially the trick is to get that low end out from the preamp section because the real amps that I have do not have that much low end. Even then when using the GEQ I don't even have to compensate for cutting the low end out and the GEQ works quite a bit differently on my Mark V and the real 1984 Mark IIC+ with all the bells and whistles. I made a separate video matching those two and have a look at that GEQ setting on the Mark V to match the IIC+:



Once again - I think the Fractal amp sims are really good and I was able to make them sound identical to my amps. I would've never even thought of using the settings in the amp blocks that match the real amps - they're weird but they work perfectly.
 
ML SOUND LAB said:
Yeah it actually takes a lot of time to create these dynamically and EQ-wise matching presets.
Click to expand...

Thanks a lot for clearing this up Mikko. I didn't know how much time you needed to put in to find and tweak the parameters for this. I thought it might have been a setting or two in the advanced parameters or something. This makes more sense now.

Sounds like perhaps a lot of the low end tightness has been sorted out in the Axe III though? Unfortunately this probably won't trickle down to AX8 users I guess.

After all this discussion, I went back and rethought a preset from scratch and tried a bunch of different things I hadn't tried before. I think I am starting to get more of the 'Gank Gank' that Petrucci refers to (and demonstrates!) in the following clip when he tested out the Mark V:25:



I haven't been able to get it quite as tight as that, but I am closer on the attack and general shape of the tone while still preserving the openness and brutal but creamy distortion of the amp when playing open chords/lines.

I might start a new thread and post the patch to see if anyone finds it useful or if my ears are terrible and I am actually no where near it! (man it is hard to tell if you are hearing what you think you are hearing sometimes!).
 
ML SOUND LAB said:
Yeah it actually takes a lot of time to create these dynamically and EQ-wise matching presets. If you would've asked me if I ever planned on selling presets a year ago I would've said no. I just had one of those light bulb moments one day when I was really trying to nail my Mark V tone with the Axe-Fx III and the results were incredible - I shared the presets to some of my friends and the feedback was essentially that they've never gotten this authentic Mark sounds with their modelers. I would say it's about 2-3h of hardcore tweaking per preset so I probably wouldn't do it "just for fun" with the limited time that I have. Here's a pretty good demo where I intentionally show off how authentic that palm mute is in these packs:



Essentially the trick is to get that low end out from the preamp section because the real amps that I have do not have that much low end. Even then when using the GEQ I don't even have to compensate for cutting the low end out and the GEQ works quite a bit differently on my Mark V and the real 1984 Mark IIC+ with all the bells and whistles. I made a separate video matching those two and have a look at that GEQ setting on the Mark V to match the IIC+:



Once again - I think the Fractal amp sims are really good and I was able to make them sound identical to my amps. I would've never even thought of using the settings in the amp blocks that match the real amps - they're weird but they work perfectly.
Click to expand...

Where do I buy a mark preset for ax8?? Thanks
 
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