What's Your Opinion of the State of Amplifier Manufacturers, Regarding Competing With Modelers?

TSJMajesty

TSJMajesty

Fractal Fanatic
I've read so many posts, wherein guys are so happy with their digital rigs, due to how great they capture tube amp sounds, the versatility of tones & effects, and ease & overall simplicity of gigging, that many many people are selling their amps (and effects.)

I gotta believe amp manufacturers are starting to see the "writing on the wall," so to speak, and possibly even seeing trends in sales perhaps starting to fall off...?

I've noticed a few things:
Amps with built-in digital modelling capabilities..., I think there's a (quite expensive) Diesel amp that has a whole separate section of effects modelling...
Some Mesa amps now have built in MIDI and IR switching
And recently we've seen Mesa get bought out by Gibson
Oh, and there was that email that someone posted from Bad Cat that to me sounded a bit desperate in trying to convince potential customers that modelling still ain't quite "there" yet... (yeah, right!)

From what I've heard out of my Axe Fx III, I doubt very seriously if this time next year I'll still own my tube gear. I'll know for sure when I get my 2 cabinets built for the Celestion F12-X200 speakers.

What do you guys think? Do you know if amp manufacturers are hurting? Are they scrambling yet? Do you think people will have to start going even lower than ~$1200 to sell a clean, like-new, Mesa DR?

To be clear, I'm not talking about, "They'll always be people who want to true 'tube amp' experience," because I know that will remain. I'm asking for your thoughts, or even actual knowledge you may have, regarding the state of the tube amp industry, as the modelling gear has gotten to the point it is now.

TIA!
 
I'm sure they've seen the writing on the wall. Anybody paying attention in the past 20 years has seen there's a change coming. But it's a slow change. Guitar players are not known for embracing new technology and, when you look at sales numbers, digital modelers are still minor competition for amp makers.
 
For me modelling has already established itself as the better option for my purposes at least, there's just too much convenience in the form factor. I can honestly never see myself owning hardware amps and cabs again other than under a purely nostalgic and extravagant situation. The value just isn't there any more and I fail to see how this factor wont exacerbate going forward as processing power and coding advances.

I feel its akin to the Vinyl/CD to MP3/streaming situation, there will still be the diehard "Vinyl" guys that keep the dwindling light going but I think the market will inevitably be dominated by modelling as technology progresses and makes Amps an almost purely boutique thing.

Don't get me wrong, 15/20 years ago I adored my tube stacks and my Line 6 gear wasn't even close but now its a complete 180.
 
It may take decades but I believe eventually the majority of new amps will be digital. They may look and feel like a traditional amp but the guts will be modeling. A lot of it will be the older players dying off. There are now a few generations of players who grew up with modelers and don't have the same attachment to tubes.
 
Going to become more of a high markup, low volume product sold to enthusiasts instead of the masses.

basically just what is happening to the photographic industry. Most people are using phones, and the enthusiasts market is getting increasingly expensive and high end offerings.

no one really wants a point and shoot camera anymore, just like fewer people are going to want an “entry level” tube amp they can buy at GC.

it’s going to be direct sales from booteek amp builders and the amps are going to be expensive (and pretty cool) but not marketed to kids playing in their bedrooms, instead guys in their 50’s who used to play tube amps in their bedroom or garage back in the 80s
 
Amp manufacturers have been trying to maintain a foothold in the market for past number of years producing lower wattage versions of their 50-100 watt amps. I believe that modeling has garnered more attention due to more and more venues making the move to silent stages. Discovering that a modeler can sound exactly the same as a mic'd cab through a PA has been the icing on the cake.

For a lot of players, the decision for making the move from amps, cabs and pedals has been out of necessity. Now it's a matter of wanting the best tone available and modeling has become more than just a viable, convenient option. I have said before, if amps, cab and pedalboard gave me the best tone available, I would still be using them regardless of convenience, reliability, maintenance, etc.... I continue to use the Axe Fx III because it gives me exactly what I want and need without compromise in any aspect of my tone.
 
What do you think the real reason was for Mesa to join up with Gibson? Maybe to give them more tools, using a more streamlined environment, i.e., less costly, to bring new ideas to market, since I gotta believe they'll now start to slim down their offerings, while at the same time begin to market amps that may have other benefits (built-in modeling, cab IR's, e.g.)...?

I also have to believe, especially in the post-Covid world, small-ish venues (bars, restaurants) will be trying to squeeze bands into the smallest-ever spaces than ever before, so they can utilize as much space as possible for customers. Thus the need for the smallest rigs one can use to still get the best FOH sound.
 
Justincase said:
Probably didn't want people playing Fender amps in their new "Gibson" garage. Lol. Now they have a "house" brand.
Click to expand...
Yeah, probably many reasons... Randall Smith is getting old..., this way he'll know the brand he created will live on, with the strength to endure (unless Gibson loses their QC again, which as I understand it, is now at a good place...?)
 
TSJMajesty said:
(unless Gibson loses their QC again, which as I understand it, is now at a good place...?)
Click to expand...
Given how much they cost it should be by now. Unless they start offering a model with a Wizard profile and a Floyd... no matter how badass they do sound...I doubt I will ever buy one.
 
When CDs first came out, nobody who was seriously into hi fi audio thought they were worth a crap. Then mp3 and even more low fi streaming formats eclipsed even CD quality.

Today vinyl and tube stereos are totally niche anachronisms. They exist, but only matter to a tiny fraction of music listeners. Expensive, with lot of logistical disadvantages, but stalwarts hear the difference and think it's worth it.
 
Last edited:
People have been pronouncing the guitar itself as near extinction and on the way out since the 80s. “Synths will replace guitars.” “It’s an old instrument that hasn’t changed with the times.” On and on and on. Tube amps get the same treatment from technology fans, yet there seems to be a new tube amp maker on the scene every year. It’s not going away, and is still so ridiculously dominant in the market that it’s almost pointless to speculate on when that might end. That’s the reality of it. I’ve been gigging Fractal gear for over a decade, and while you see more modelers on stages now, it’s still a rarity by comparison.

My take on why might be a bit different, but hear me out before you label me as one of the tube dinosaurs. Modelers are just that… modelers. They are replicators, copy machines. Damn good ones, and getting better all of the time. But what use is a copy machine when there’s nothing to copy? Just like “copiers” became “printers” so they could make originals, so must modelers become amplifiers in their own right, creating sounds you can’t get from an amp. Fractal Audio has been heading that way for years, in case you haven’t noticed. Introducing amp types that don’t exist, allowing combinations of components that don’t exist. The future of modelers isn’t in modeling, really. It’s in creating.

You‘re correct that the people that came up when tube amps were the thing are going to die off. But solid state was available in the 60s, and ”effects” moved to the fore then, as well. What modelers have really accomplished to date is the best way to put all of the amps, effects, and cabs together… they’re the best routing option, and the easiest way to carry it around. That’s what makes them so convenient. But just like keyboard-guitar solutions (or guitar-keyboard solutions, for that matter), it’s not a one for one replacement; it’s a substitution. Even if a keyboard could sound just like a guitar, it’s still sounding like a guitar! And so with modelers… as long as they are replicators, however good, they’ll always be more keeping the original alive than replacing it. I do think modelers will continue to invent new tones, and that is a real path forward.

Guitar amp makers are, wisely, incorporating the “handy” parts of modeling, just like they did with adding effects. Again, that started in the 50s, not now. But, in the end, this isn’t what the average pro uses on stage. It’s still the stand-alone amp that’s making today’s hits, and tomorrow’s stars. Old amp tech, using even older guitar tech. Because it sounds good. And that’s all that matters. My UA Ox Box can make my real 75 watt Tucana 3 work on a “silent stage.” People invent options.

Anyway, I love my Fractal gear. 11 straight years of gigging it professionally has proven it is a roadworthy, gig-ready option. I also love my tube amps, about a dozen in total, having added more since owning the Axe Fx, and still use them all the time. They also work great together. It’s about using them to make music, and whichever one or combination does it, does it!

Modelers will get more popular. Tube amps aren’t going anywhere. Guitars will, as a rule, remain a six-stringed chunk of wood with metal strings and tuners you have to turn by hand, technology be damned. That’s my prediction.

Flame-proof suit on now. Lol. 😊
 
Rick said:
People have been pronouncing the guitar itself as near extinction and on the way out since the 80s. “Synths will replace guitars.” “It’s an old instrument that hasn’t changed with the times.” On and on and on. Tube amps get the same treatment from technology fans, yet there seems to be a new tube amp maker on the scene every year. It’s not going away, and is still so ridiculously dominant in the market that it’s almost pointless to speculate on when that might end. That’s the reality of it. I’ve been gigging Fractal gear for over a decade, and while you see more modelers on stages now, it’s still a rarity by comparison.

My take on why might be a bit different, but hear me out before you label me as one of the tube dinosaurs. Modelers are just that… modelers. They are replicators, copy machines. Damn good ones, and getting better all of the time. But what use is a copy machine when there’s nothing to copy? Just like “copiers” became “printers” so they could make originals, so must modelers become amplifiers in their own right, creating sounds you can’t get from an amp. Fractal Audio has been heading that way for years, in case you haven’t noticed. Introducing amp types that don’t exist, allowing combinations of components that don’t exist. The future of modelers isn’t in modeling, really. It’s in creating.

You‘re correct that the people that came up when tube amps were the thing are going to die off. But solid state was available in the 60s, and ”effects” moved to the fore then, as well. What modelers have really accomplished to date is the best way to put all of the amps, effects, and cabs together… they’re the best routing option, and the easiest way to carry it around. That’s what makes them so convenient. But just like keyboard-guitar solutions (or guitar-keyboard solutions, for that matter), it’s not a one for one replacement; it’s a substitution. Even if a keyboard could sound just like a guitar, it’s still sounding like a guitar! And so with modelers… as long as they are replicators, however good, they’ll always be more keeping the original alive than replacing it. I do think modelers will continue to invent new tones, and that is a real path forward.

Guitar amp makers are, wisely, incorporating the “handy” parts of modeling, just like they did with adding effects. Again, that started in the 50s, not now. But, in the end, this isn’t what the average pro uses on stage. It’s still the stand-alone amp that’s making today’s hits, and tomorrow’s stars. Old amp tech, using even older guitar tech. Because it sounds good. And that’s all that matters. My UA Ox Box can make my real 75 watt Tucana 3 work on a “silent stage.” People invent options.

Anyway, I love my Fractal gear. 11 straight years of gigging it professionally has proven it is a roadworthy, gig-ready option. I also love my tube amps, about a dozen in total, having added more since owning the Axe Fx, and still use them all the time. They also work great together. It’s about using them to make music, and whichever one or combination does it, does it!

Modelers will get more popular. Tube amps aren’t going anywhere. Guitars will, as a rule, remain a six-stringed chunk of wood with metal strings and tuners you have to turn by hand, technology be damned. That’s my prediction.

Flame-proof suit on now. Lol. 😊
Click to expand...

I agree, I've got an interview in a book with Cliff where I'm sure he said he really wanted folks to use his gear to create new sounds.
I'm sure the next generations of Fractal gear will give more options to mix up the components of amps and create whole new digital amplifiers

As for the op's point. It's like anything new, some companies will adapt and offer hybrid products, Suhrs PT15 springs to mind. Whilst others will steadfast stick to the old traditional ways and say they're the classis unbeatable tones.
The market will decide and the fittest will be there in the end
 
Rick said:
People have been pronouncing the guitar itself as near extinction and on the way out since the 80s. “Synths will replace guitars.” “It’s an old instrument that hasn’t changed with the times.” On and on and on. Tube amps get the same treatment from technology fans, yet there seems to be a new tube amp maker on the scene every year. It’s not going away, and is still so ridiculously dominant in the market that it’s almost pointless to speculate on when that might end. That’s the reality of it. I’ve been gigging Fractal gear for over a decade, and while you see more modelers on stages now, it’s still a rarity by comparison.

My take on why might be a bit different, but hear me out before you label me as one of the tube dinosaurs. Modelers are just that… modelers. They are replicators, copy machines. Damn good ones, and getting better all of the time. But what use is a copy machine when there’s nothing to copy? Just like “copiers” became “printers” so they could make originals, so must modelers become amplifiers in their own right, creating sounds you can’t get from an amp. Fractal Audio has been heading that way for years, in case you haven’t noticed. Introducing amp types that don’t exist, allowing combinations of components that don’t exist. The future of modelers isn’t in modeling, really. It’s in creating.

You‘re correct that the people that came up when tube amps were the thing are going to die off. But solid state was available in the 60s, and ”effects” moved to the fore then, as well. What modelers have really accomplished to date is the best way to put all of the amps, effects, and cabs together… they’re the best routing option, and the easiest way to carry it around. That’s what makes them so convenient. But just like keyboard-guitar solutions (or guitar-keyboard solutions, for that matter), it’s not a one for one replacement; it’s a substitution. Even if a keyboard could sound just like a guitar, it’s still sounding like a guitar! And so with modelers… as long as they are replicators, however good, they’ll always be more keeping the original alive than replacing it. I do think modelers will continue to invent new tones, and that is a real path forward.

Guitar amp makers are, wisely, incorporating the “handy” parts of modeling, just like they did with adding effects. Again, that started in the 50s, not now. But, in the end, this isn’t what the average pro uses on stage. It’s still the stand-alone amp that’s making today’s hits, and tomorrow’s stars. Old amp tech, using even older guitar tech. Because it sounds good. And that’s all that matters. My UA Ox Box can make my real 75 watt Tucana 3 work on a “silent stage.” People invent options.

Anyway, I love my Fractal gear. 11 straight years of gigging it professionally has proven it is a roadworthy, gig-ready option. I also love my tube amps, about a dozen in total, having added more since owning the Axe Fx, and still use them all the time. They also work great together. It’s about using them to make music, and whichever one or combination does it, does it!

Modelers will get more popular. Tube amps aren’t going anywhere. Guitars will, as a rule, remain a six-stringed chunk of wood with metal strings and tuners you have to turn by hand, technology be damned. That’s my prediction.

Flame-proof suit on now. Lol. 😊
Click to expand...

I also considered the point that Modeler's are replicating what already is but I would say amps themselves are variations of what already was but tweaked to an alternate taste or application so I think Modeling companies can (as you said, they have with the 'FAS' models) do the same using the library of algorithms they have to create new sounds.
The ability within modeling to totally mix and match the inner working factors of an amp model to create something completely unique is where I think it surpasses physical amps. I know we have Road Kings, Invective etc. that are multi-tube and so on but they are very high price, logistically difficult, still not as tweakable and arguably missing huge amounts of additional features such as effects, recording interface and so on.

One thing I am very convinced on is that this is a phenomenal time to be a guitar player or musician in general thanks to the advances in modeling and technology.
 
TSJMajesty said:
I've read so many posts, wherein guys are so happy with their digital rigs, due to how great they capture tube amp sounds, the versatility of tones & effects, and ease & overall simplicity of gigging, that many many people are selling their amps (and effects.)

I gotta believe amp manufacturers are starting to see the "writing on the wall," so to speak, and possibly even seeing trends in sales perhaps starting to fall off...?

I've noticed a few things:
Amps with built-in digital modelling capabilities..., I think there's a (quite expensive) Diesel amp that has a whole separate section of effects modelling...
Some Mesa amps now have built in MIDI and IR switching
And recently we've seen Mesa get bought out by Gibson
Oh, and there was that email that someone posted from Bad Cat that to me sounded a bit desperate in trying to convince potential customers that modelling still ain't quite "there" yet... (yeah, right!)

From what I've heard out of my Axe Fx III, I doubt very seriously if this time next year I'll still own my tube gear. I'll know for sure when I get my 2 cabinets built for the Celestion F12-X200 speakers.

What do you guys think? Do you know if amp manufacturers are hurting? Are they scrambling yet? Do you think people will have to start going even lower than ~$1200 to sell a clean, like-new, Mesa DR?

To be clear, I'm not talking about, "They'll always be people who want to true 'tube amp' experience," because I know that will remain. I'm asking for your thoughts, or even actual knowledge you may have, regarding the state of the tube amp industry, as the modelling gear has gotten to the point it is now.

TIA!
Click to expand...
I doubt they are hurting as a whole.
Go to a large major music retailer. The floor isn’t full of modeling amps yet.
FRFR options are very limited too.
 
My opinion with a picture
fca91d42b4542b2eb6f84494bb56a2e5.jpg

Yeah, they will always have love
 
I've always been drawn to multi effects processors (MEP) ever since I can remember not just because it was new tech but for value and convince of having everything in one unit, fast forward and now we have modeling i.e. FM3/AX8, I'm so into it now w/my MEP is so fantastic that sounds as good as my vintage JCM 800's stacks using head pones or USB in or sent to a PA, its a remarkable technological progress (thanks Fractal) though I know a few guitarists that are stead fast traditionalists when it comes to amps, and any time I mention my FM3 its like taboo...
 
Tube amps are never going to fade in a serious way. This stuff is cyclical; there will be a move towards 'big iron' again as a nod to the past.

I think there is going to be a move towards lower wattage amps in various styles. IMO the fidelity has not been there for many of them.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom