What's up with the FRFR love?

acidfrost

acidfrost

Inspired
What's up with everyone having FRFR amplifications and the obsession towards them?

It might just be me, but I don't get the point of it.
I sold my amps to get an axe fx so I wouldn't have to bring my full stack at every show or practice.

I use headphones at home or studio monitors and at practice I plug directly in the P.A., like I would at a show.

So what's up with the FRFR setups? Since the Axe-Fx can plug directly in the PA, why would anyone trouble themselves with full FRFR kits?

This is not meant as an attack on those who have FRFR setups, I just don't understand and looking for your opinions.

Thanks!
 
Hi acidfrost,

for me personally, I use a pair of FRFR monitors because at the different places I practice and gig at, the PA is always different - some good, some bad. I only really plug in at gigs, and I like using the speakers I bring so my sound is always consistent, and also so I can control my onstage levels separately. I also sometimes use my monitors to run my vocal mix through as well.

The only time I don't bring my FRFR speakers is to a practice where i'm not concerned about the sound or, I know the practice space has a good setup, or lastly, I don't feel like carrying an extra set of speakers to practice.....

As well, I love the fact that I have 2 speaker cabs (I always run stereo, love the sound) that are about a foot and a half high, as opposed to bring two 4x12 cabs...... that fact alone sells me every time.

Cheers!

C

p.s. - here's what I run in stereo- Yorkville
I also have one RCF NX-10SMA that I love as well, it's not as loud, and until I can get 2 of them, i'll stick with the yorkville's for most gigs....
 
Thanks for the answer!

So do you mic your speakers at gigs or still run direct to the board and use your speakers for your personal monitoring?

For monitoring live, I was looking at wireless earphones so if their system is sub-par, it won't affect me.
 
I use a pair of Euphonic VL110 cabinets. They're lightweight, full-range, and about a foot and half tall each - pretty much same size as those described above by dukemcrae - and I run my system in stereo. I like the sound and FEEL of the cabinets. No guitar mics on stage for me... I always provide a direct feed (or two) to the board, so if the venue has a really great monitor setup I leave my speaker cabs in the truck. Also, although I have in-ear monitors, the rest of my band doesn't; so my guitar speakers give them a sense of localization for me. Someday perhaps we'll all go to in-ear and if so, I'll not need those cabs onstage.

Many AxeFX owners use high-quality studio reference headphones when building patches and practicing. This is an advantage of the FRFR approach, as it allows you to reasonably assume what you built in the rehearsal room will translate faithfully to FOH. This doesn't get away from the Fletcher-Munson "loudness" effect, so you still need to double-check your patches at performance volume, whether you're using in-ears or stage cabinets.
 
I use FRFR for consistency at venues, for rehearsal, for creating patches - again, for consistency - I don't want to use studio monitors or headphones, I want to use the wedge I'll be facing when I play. And most of all, for interacting with the speaker for feedback etc. Sure I could interact with a PA monitor too, but the CLR (my FRFR solution of choice) gives me that consistent volume, tone, and response.
 
acidfrost said:
What's up with everyone having FRFR amplifications and the obsession towards them? <SNIP>

I use headphones at home or studio monitors and at practice I plug directly in the P.A., like I would at a show.
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Like you, I'm fully FRFR, running directly to FOH and using in-ears for stage monitoring and in-ears/studio monitors at home. I've probably been running this way for two years.

That said, I've been wondering if I should pick up a CLR for those times when I might play in another venue. The in-ear setup we have at the church where I play is nicely configured. However, if I get the chance to play in another venue, especially one smaller than ours, in-ears may not be an option. It's tough to justify, given the light use, but playing through a run of the mill vocal monitor would drive me nuts. Most are not particularly linear.

Terry.
 
Not all PA systems, stage monitor systems, stage and room acoustics are created equal. Having a FRFR rig at home that I use to create my tones at gig volume means that I can be confident that the tone will translate - at least as a baseline - to the FOH PA system when used on the gig. Because many provided stage monitor systems either outright suck, or may be tweaked with a vocal-friendly EQ in mind, or may just not be powerful enough, carrying my own single or pair of FRFR cabinets means that I don't need to rely on the whims of the sound techs and their gear in order to be happy hearing my tone, and with volume independence of the sound tech staff.

Much of this depends on the level of gigs/venues/PA systems. If you're gigging at the top end of touring, you'll usually have top notch staffing and gear. At the next level down, you'll have a mix of great gear/staff mixed in with some OK, and perhaps even some really suck situations. At the levels below this, you'll either be renting or providing your own PA system or be using a house provided system, which generally is a crap-shoot of quality and quantity, as well as dubious house techs running the stuff.

Picture yourself performing at a venue where the sound mixer isn't very good, and he's got a chip on his shoulder. Add to this a fairly mediocre monitor system on stage with no split feeds for a separate monitor console. Long story short, you'll make your life a helluva lot easier if you take control of your own stage sound so that, regardless of anything else the house sound staff does with the equipment provided, you can be happy with your sound on stage, which will enhance your chances of a good, comfortable performance.

If you're in situations where you're guaranteed quality gear, lengthy sound checks, and quality staffing, then you are fortunate, and probably don't need to fret over such things mentioned above. But if you're like the other 90% of gigging players out there, eventually you'll run into situations where having a good FRFR stage rig will be the only thing that keeps you sane when using direct feed rather than mic'd traditional cabinet for your send to the PA system.

If you supply your own in-ear monitoring, that's great, but then where does the mix come from to hear the rest of the band? If the house PA is sub-par to begin with, the chances that you'll get a balanced in-ear mix that sounds good provided by the sound tech are probably pretty slim, unless you go to great lengths to provide your own split feeds to your own mixing console. If you're thinking you can just put your own guitar mix in your earphones, and not the rest of the band for reference...well...give it a try and tell us what you think. If you can be happy with that arrangement, good for you!
 
What I was going for is in-ears in one ear (not both) so I can ear the band and the crowd. I've played in a lot of sub-par venues so I know about bad monitoring. Having a FRFR setup doesn't change the fact that you rely on the stage monitors for the rest of the band. To my eyes, and ears, FRFR is a hassle compared to the axe fx with output 2 in my in-ears.
 
acidfrost said:
What I was going for is in-ears in one ear (not both) so I can ear the band and the crowd. I've played in a lot of sub-par venues so I know about bad monitoring. Having a FRFR setup doesn't change the fact that you rely on the stage monitors for the rest of the band. To my eyes, and ears, FRFR is a hassle compared to the axe fx with output 2 in my in-ears.
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Great. Whatever works for you. Good luck. That I wouldn't go the route you've taken, nor you mine, does not diminish the viability or desirability of either method. If you don't get the whole stage monitor FRFR thing, that's fine. You don't NEED to understand it, want it, or use it.
 
I went backline-less only once... and the result was nobody up front could hear my guitar at all... might have well sat out the gig. I use ears, and no wedges, and put my k12 behind me just for stage volume, it helps fill out the room. If you are playing stadiums I wouldn't have anything on the stage but a drum kit. By no means is it necessary, but it makes me feel better, especially if I run up against a douchey sound guy...
 
Unless you're awesome at hearing yourself in your head, having to depend on monitors provided at a gig can be a VERY frustrating thing. Thankfully (in retrospect), my first gig ended up having a complete wall of indecipherable noise coming from the monitors. It taught me two things: 1. learn to play without being able to hear your self and 2. bring your own monitors so you don't have to fall back to #1.
The best thing about a true (or as close as they manufacture) FRFR monitor is that you aren't dialing in patches based on a biased/over-hyped system...this should allow you to sound good on most any PA setup.
 
acidfrost said:
What I was going for is in-ears in one ear (not both) so I can ear the band and the crowd. I've played in a lot of sub-par venues so I know about bad monitoring. Having a FRFR setup doesn't change the fact that you rely on the stage monitors for the rest of the band. To my eyes, and ears, FRFR is a hassle compared to the axe fx with output 2 in my in-ears.
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So your question then should really be: What would be the benefits of using on-stage monitoring compared to in-ears? When I read your original post I took it as FRFR vs traditional cab.

If you prefer in-ears - great. I don't mind my Yamaha DXR-10 that is relatively small and weigh about 14Kg. I can do a "walk in" with my DXR-10, AFx2, pedalboard and a dual guitar case on my back in one go from my car. It doesn't change the fact that the singing might sound crap through the house monitors but I trust the sound that what's coming out of my monitor is close (enough) to FoH for my guitar sound.
 
acidfrost said:
What I was going for is in-ears in one ear (not both) so I can ear the band and the crowd. I've played in a lot of sub-par venues so I know about bad monitoring. Having a FRFR setup doesn't change the fact that you rely on the stage monitors for the rest of the band. To my eyes, and ears, FRFR is a hassle compared to the axe fx with output 2 in my in-ears.
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You might want to read this article before going the route of the single in-ear monitor:

One danger from too much isolation comes when musicians decide to “fix” the problem by wearing an earpiece in only one ear. “When players take one out, their brain loses its ability to do binaural summation, where two ears together add up to a 6dB increase in your perception of loudness,” Santucci explains. “If you're hearing 90 dB in both ears, your brain thinks it's hearing 96 dB. If you take one ear away, then that one ear has to go from 90 to 96 to sound like 96. And now the other ear is open and getting bashed by the band, the P.A. and the crowd. So this loud sound coming into the open ear causes you to turn the other ear up even more. In terms of ear safety, using one earpiece is a dangerous practice — it could actually be worse than using none at all.”

“There's a common misconception that an artist can use just one earpiece and still use stage monitors, but this results in the worst of both worlds,” says Dias, who offers a simple experiment to demonstrate this. “Have someone stand onstage with a beltpack using one ear and turn it up to a comfortable performing level. Now shut the beltpack off and run the stage monitor to a comfortable level. When you turn the monitors and the single earpiece on, the artist inevitably thinks the in-ear sounds weak and cranks it up to compensate. But when you turn the wedges off, the artist will notice that the earpiece is too loud. In the case of one-ear listening, you don't get the benefit of hearing protection and you don't get the accuracy benefit of the in-ears.”
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I use one out to FOH, and one to an FRFR monitor. It tried in ears, loved it, all except that I had to keep pulling them to talk to audience members... painful after 20 times in a night. In small venues I would just run it through my vocal monitor with that feed which was workable but not the best. So a quality FRFR that was small and sounded faithful to the preset is worth the small load to carry.

The point made earlier that what works right to you is what's right is solid wisdom.
 
I like FR because 1, the coverage you get as opposed to a guitar cab and 2, the guitar to cab interaction is still there. 3, if you have the right gear or monitor you can monitor your guitar and the rest of the band mix all in one speaker if needed. IEM's can do 2 of those but I like to hear the sound as it travels from the speaker through the air to my ear... that and IEM's make my ear canals itch ;).
 
I used IEM exclusively for a couple of years in the same venue every week and even with the same engineer the mix was not consistent. I often found myself pulling them out and depending on the stage sound which of course is only possible if you have some sort of amplification/speaker on the stage. I still have my IEM system however since switching to the CLR I have not needed it. That said I am playing for 2 services on different campuses on Sundays and rehearsing on Thurs so I have a couple of permanent rigs and I am not lugging this stuff around 3 times per week. I do have a CLR Neo (which seems to weigh nothing) that I am using for designing my presets at home and road gigs where we are able to go FOH. For non-FOH gigs or jam sessions I am still using a tube amp (Allston Amplifiers AOC - designed to my specs) that only requires a wah upfront and a delay in the loop, because it is still simpler than bringing out my Axe, MPC and CLR rig.
 
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