What is wrong with me and my locking tuners?

W

White Light of Death

Power User
I have a couple of SUPER high end (“what is called boutique”) guitars that have sperzel or Schaller locking tuners.
no matter what I do, at some point, after I put strings on and “try to lock it”, it goes out of tune or pitch slightly and then

WORST part - after I thought I locked it aNd snipped the excess... i try to retune a few minutes later or something and snap!
I have as good as it gets hardware and its on more than one sperzel set

What am i doing wrong?
am i over tightening?
undertenighting?
what should i do becuase i feel like I might damage the locking tuner andi HATE keep changing strings, which i did 3 pops today!

Does anyone know why this happens?

thanks
 
White Light of Death said:
I have a couple of SUPER high end (“what is called boutique”) guitars that have sperzel or Schaller locking tuners.
no matter what I do, at some point, after I put strings on and “try to lock it”, it goes out of tune or pitch slightly and then

WORST part - after I thought I locked it aNd snipped the excess... i try to retune a few minutes later or something and snap!
I have as good as it gets hardware and its on more than one sperzel set

What am i doing wrong?
am i over tightening?
undertenighting?
what should i do becuase i feel like I might damage the locking tuner andi HATE keep changing strings, which i did 3 pops today!

Does anyone know why this happens?

thanks
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Those Sperzel locking tuners were notorious for that. When you tighten them down they only need to be snug. Don't crank down on them or you get the result you have experienced. Most of us in the bass community have gotten away from them because they're just too finicky and inconsistent. BUT...I will say that they're awesome when tweaked properly and working as they should.
 
RoketRdr said:
Those Sperzel locking tuners were notorious for that. When you tighten them down they only need to be snug. Don't crank down on them or you get the result you have experienced. Most of us in the bass community have gotten away from them because they're just too finicky and inconsistent. BUT...I will say that they're awesome when tweaked properly and working as they should.
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ahhh ok, that’s exactly what it felt like, i ”overscrewed” and then it actually went flat...like FLAAAAT
and then when I returned back to normal perfect pitch tune, SNAP.....and This was on the first second and third string, so really annoying

And i heard sperzel can be finicky but as you said, almost like gorgeously unrivaled for utility and also they have so many aesthetic options

but thanks dude
 
White Light of Death said:
ahhh ok, that’s exactly what it felt like, i ”overscrewed” and then it actually went flat...like FLAAAAT
and then when I returned back to normal perfect pitch tune, SNAP.....and This was on the first second and third string, so really annoying

And i heard sperzel can be finicky but as you said, almost like gorgeously unrivaled for utility and also they have so many aesthetic options

but thanks dude
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Yeah they definitely take some getting used to and you have to learn how to tweak them. What's happening when you crank down too tight is its cutting through the outer wrap and getting into the inner core. Once you've gone that far there's no fixing it and the string will break. You want them to just lightly smash the outer wrap and all is good.
 
RoketRdr said:
Yeah they definitely take some getting used to and you have to learn how to tweak them. What's happening when you crank down too tight is its cutting through the outer wrap and getting into the inner core. Once you've gone that far there's no fixing it and the string will break. You want them to just lightly smash the outer wrap and all is good.
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Perfect, you made it so clear for me with that - LIGHTLY SMASH the outer wrap, that makes total sense dude
thank you
 
Could something else account for it? 27” length scale neck, nothing too crazy.....standard tuning....could it be the way the hipshot bridge was set up?
 
White Light of Death said:
Could something else account for it? 27” length scale neck, nothing too crazy.....standard tuning....could it be the way the hipshot bridge was set up?
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Account for what? String breakage or going out of tune?

Where are the breaks occurring? At the tuner? At the nut? At the bridge?

Do you stretch your strings when changing them? They should be thoroughly stretched after replacing them.

And you're tuning a 27" to standard what? E? Tension might be a bit high...
 
unix-guy said:
Account for what? String breakage or going out of tune?

Where are the breaks occurring? At the tuner? At the nut? At the bridge?

Do you stretch your strings when changing them? They should be thoroughly stretched after replacing them.

And you're tuning a 27" to standard what? E? Tension might be a bit high...
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Yes on almost all
Standard tuning on a 27”
It’s a little tight but never had a problem in 10 years with 2 others

I admit I don’t stretch properly but they are all popping at the headstock tuner, like as if there is no more string and it pulls right in a reel and flattrns

could it be from the initial setup being poor? He cut the strings reallyreally close without any room so They went first

but after I changed them(maybe didn’t stretch enough ) mine snapped

point is it’s at the tuner not the middle orbridge or anything
 
White Light of Death said:
point is it’s at the tuner not the middle orbridge or anything
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Then it's the tuners or how they're being used.

Sounds like you may be over tightening the lock as suggested above. Maybe the extra tension in combination with that is triggering it?

I have to ask: why are you using an extended scale guitar at standard tuning? Most people do that so they can tune down but keep the same tension.

What string gauge are you using?
 
I dont downtune beyond Drop E.... plus i didnt think the gauges might be that much of an issue
I use a couple of sets.... EBMM skinny top heavy bottom 9-80 and also 9-74 , generally on the thinner side

I have an ERG for the fretboard mobility, the tonal options, the different play of the guitar, but not so much more hardcore down tunes.though

thanks man
 
White Light of Death said:
I dont downtune beyond Drop E.... plus i didnt think the gauges might be that much of an issue
I use a couple of sets.... EBMM skinny top heavy bottom 9-80 and also 9-74 , generally on the thinner side

I have an ERG for the fretboard mobility, the tonal options, the different play of the guitar, but not so much more hardcore down tunes.though

thanks man
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Oh, so these are 7 or 8 string guitars? Your post didn't mention that...

One more thought: when the strings break, is there still a piece in the tuner on the side that doesn't go to the bridge? And you have to unlock to remove it? But on the broken side there is none.

If so, that's a good indication that you're over tightening the lock.

ScotHessler said:
Is it one string breaking consistently? It could be a burr where the string passes through the tuner.
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Definitely
 
I disassemble the tuners and sand then polish the ends of the locking posts to a nice smooth chamfered (rounded) edge. Some come from the factory with a sharp 90 degree edge; basically a cutting tool. Others are great out of the box and need no work.

I've also had this problem with the locking nut on a high-end headless guitar (Kiesel) where the setscrews had sharp ends that cut the strings like butter.

IMO, no design should ever use a post that rotates into the string. Kahler first used it in their earliest nut designs. It sucks just as badly now as it did 40 years ago.
 
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unix-guy said:
Oh, so these are 7 or 8 string guitars? Your post didn't mention that...

One more thought: when the strings break, is there still a piece in the tuner on the side that doesn't go to the bridge? And you have to unlock to remove it? But on the broken side there is none.

If so, that's a good indication that you're over tightening the lock.


Definitely
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Yes it is an 8 string. 27 “ scale lenght
as for the second question , I’m using a hipshot fixed bridge, so the ball end goes into the body/bridge and then to the graphite nut and to the tuner peg For winding.

it 80 too heavy, because i also have 74 and 76 gauge for the low f#, and it sounds good though....would the 74 be like very tight, but clear? I doubt MUCH clearer though

anyway, I’m not sure about the burr, but I restrung and it might be this guitar had 2 year old strings that sat in the case and then they were tuned to standard before shipping and the second i went to intonate they popped??

now I leave a lot more slack before cutting the end/tips of the leftover string


thx guys, if someone can tell me about 27” and 74 or 80 gauge ,like what should be advantages or con of each that be great
and thanks unix
 
White Light of Death said:
as for the second question , I’m using a hipshot fixed bridge, so the ball end goes into the body/bridge and then to the graphite nut and to the tuner peg For winding.
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My 2nd question was really about the "remains" of the string after it breaks. I'm assuming there was NO string remaining on the side the string goes INTO the tuner but there is some left on the side it comes OUT of the tuner?
 
Yes over tightening or over wrapping possibly caused a burr and the burr is slicing through like butter when u start cranking again. They don't need to be ThAT tight! Actually surprised that you're not stripping them, I've seen them strip but never breaking strings. Check for burrs like the men said, don't over crank and must stretch them strings, clip off string ends LAST after it holds tune when u get finished stretching and retune.
Also note that on the B8, with the angle of that headstock and the sperzels, the holes in tuner post should be aiming directly at the nut slot when u feed the string through. Get down low and look from top to align it, slide it through, pull long excess tight with one hand and tighten tuner with other. You want the string to have tension applied by the tuner immediately as you begin to raise pitch. With sperzel tuners on this kind of ESP headstock u don't want to be winding ANY slack because then you'll have wraps aren't good for these tuners.

So fix them burrs, align hole to nut slot,slide string and pull hard, tighten knob, stretch,retune until it's in tune after u stretch then u know you're good. Now clip off the end and done. Should only have half a wrap on the post when completely done. May take a couple restrings to get it just right.
 
Billbill said:
Yes over tightening or over wrapping possibly caused a burr and the burr is slicing through like butter when u start cranking again. They don't need to be ThAT tight! Actually surprised that you're not stripping them, I've seen them strip but never breaking strings. Check for burrs like the men said, don't over crank and must stretch them strings, clip off string ends LAST after it holds tune when u get finished stretching and retune.
Also note that on the B8, with the angle of that headstock and the sperzels, the holes in tuner post should be aiming directly at the nut slot when u feed the string through. Get down low and look from top to align it, slide it through, pull long excess tight with one hand and tighten tuner with other. You want the string to have tension applied by the tuner immediately as you begin to raise pitch. With sperzel tuners on this kind of ESP headstock u don't want to be winding ANY slack because then you'll have wraps aren't good for these tuners.

So fix them burrs, align hole to nut slot,slide string and pull hard, tighten knob, stretch,retune until it's in tune after u stretch then u know you're good. Now clip off the end and done. Should only have half a wrap on the post when completely done. May take a couple restrings to get it just right.
Click to expand...

THIS exactly. 👍
 
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