What is the deal with the mic model?

Karl Houseknecht

Power User
Given that you have the option of not even turning one on and it sounds great that way, I'm finding I don't even care to use one. Does anyone else feel that way? With the POD or GT it was necessary to use the mic unless you were in one of the compensated live output modes. But those were useless for going direct to FOH or DAW.
 
I don't use them. I was one of the loudest voices about having a 'none' (which is really not none, but a Earthworks TC30 reference level mic instead) choice in the mic settings early on. I think it was around the 3.xx days or 4.xx days. Way back when. ;) :D
 
I find them quite useful. Can give an amp/cab a slightly different character. The Royer and Neumanns are my favs.
 
Because I have always been interested in translating the sound I hear while I'm playing as accurately as possible to FOH or recording, I have never used mic sims. When I acquire IRs, I use an ACO Pacific Type 1 test mic, and my playback system is as neutral as they get. Having taken great pains to remove all possible coloration from the signal chain, I'm ill-inclined to defeat all that effort by using a mic sim.

I see why mic sims are offered, however. Close-mic'ing guitar is a black art, and the choice and placement of the mic are key elements in the mojo. It's a game I choose not to play, but others enjoy it.
 
Thanks, guys, it all makes perfect sense. I've always wanted a "flat" mic for the POD too, but it was never offered. LOL, Scott, "way back when". :D
 
VegaBaby said:
I find them quite useful. Can give an amp/cab a slightly different character. The Royer and Neumanns are my favs.

Ditto. The Royer 121 can really bring the cab sims alive. I like the Neumanns as well for different sounds. Don't really touch the other mic models.
 
I don't think anyone should be so closed minded as to make a rule not to use the mic sims. Sometimes, its just what the preset needed! If you think about how the Axe works, the mic sims are just another filter to shape your tone.
 
mitch236 said:
I don't think anyone should be so closed minded as to make a rule not to use the mic sims. Sometimes, its just what the preset needed! If you think about how the Axe works, the mic sims are just another filter to shape your tone.

You are right, and I personally (I have no idea if you were speaking to me, probably not) don't use the mic sims in the Axe-FX because I use all user IR's with the mic already as part of the chosen IR(s) I use. The one thing I make a rule to do is not stack mic sim on top of mic sim; in other words, if your IR's use a mic when captured, it's probably a good rule to not use any mic choices from the cab block.
 
Scott Peterson said:
mitch236 said:
I don't think anyone should be so closed minded as to make a rule not to use the mic sims. Sometimes, its just what the preset needed! If you think about how the Axe works, the mic sims are just another filter to shape your tone.

You are right, and I personally (I have no idea if you were speaking to me, probably not) don't use the mic sims in the Axe-FX because I use all user IR's with the mic already as part of the chosen IR(s) I use. The one thing I make a rule to do is not stack mic sim on top of mic sim; in other words, if your IR's use a mic when captured, it's probably a good rule to not use any mic choices from the cab block.
:mrgreen: Yeah when I started in with IR's and forgot myself once or twice. And an IR with an SM57 in the impulse stacked on mic sim SM57 or whatever sounds like a comb filter gone bad.
 
After switching to far-field IR's, I stopped using mic sims.
 
I haven't had good success with the dynamic mic models. The R121 and other condenser/tube mic models do work nicely.
 
mortega76 said:
yek said:
After switching to far-field IR's, I stopped using mic sims.
can you share your far field IRs?

I'm using the ones from Jay, included in the firmware: 2x12 Gold and 2x12 G12.
I'm gonna try other far-field IR's from Jay too (see sticky in User Cabs forum).
 
I've been stuck with the "none" thing for a while, probably until the V7 firmwares.

After Cliff reworked the cab models though, I find it really useful to mix and match mic and cab sims.

I tend to use the R121 the most, since it sounds stupidly warm and upfront, although it doesn't sit all that well in a mix.

When I need a bit of bite to sit better on a mix, or just for the sake of it, I use the SM58 or the SM57, depends on how much "presence" I want.

If I need some more pick attack, but not midrange body, I tend to use the MD421.

The SM58/57 and MD421 are usually combined with the R121. I use 2 cab blocks for that, to avoid compromising cab quality.

As for user IRs... Well, I've bought Recabinet, used them in a few situations, but they sound weird due to being recorded using a tube power amp that alters the sound a lot. RedWirez sounds like a better option. I've bought the Mesa 4x12 and Marshall w/ V30s so far, found more use for the first one than the second, but am still using a lot more the standard cabs than RedWirez.

My cheap 2c, YMMV
 
Scott Peterson said:
mitch236 said:
I don't think anyone should be so closed minded as to make a rule not to use the mic sims. Sometimes, its just what the preset needed! If you think about how the Axe works, the mic sims are just another filter to shape your tone.

You are right, and I personally (I have no idea if you were speaking to me, probably not) don't use the mic sims in the Axe-FX because I use all user IR's with the mic already as part of the chosen IR(s) I use. The one thing I make a rule to do is not stack mic sim on top of mic sim; in other words, if your IR's use a mic when captured, it's probably a good rule to not use any mic choices from the cab block.

Not aimed at you at all. I read someone else who stated they never use mic sims, and that poster is considered a bit of an authority here.
 
mitch236 said:
Not aimed at you at all. I read someone else who stated they never use mic sims, and that poster is considered a bit of an authority here.
That would be me. I did not say that anyone else should not use mic sims, but I will say that it is anything but "closed-minded" to know the specific sounds one is going for and to understand how to proceed in order to achieve those goals. Trial-and error experimentation with extra variables - think about how many combinations of cab and mic sims are possible in the Axe-Fx - is highly unlikely to ever lead to a definitively optimal result.

If you want to spend your time experimenting, then have at it. My approach - keeping in mind that this is what works for me - is to minimize the number of variables I am working to optimize. I have never found a need for mic sims. For that matter, I have never used the factory cab sims, nor do I ever use the "air" or "drive" parameters in the cab block.
 
Jay Mitchell said:
mitch236 said:
Not aimed at you at all. I read someone else who stated they never use mic sims, and that poster is considered a bit of an authority here.
That would be me. I did not say that anyone else should not use mic sims, but I will say that it is anything but "closed-minded" to know the specific sounds one is going for and to understand how to proceed in order to achieve those goals. Trial-and error experimentation with extra variables - think about how many combinations of cab and mic sims are possible in the Axe-Fx - is highly unlikely to ever lead to a definitively optimal result.

If you want to spend your time experimenting, then have at it. My approach - keeping in mind that this is what works for me - is to minimize the number of variables I am working to optimize. I have never found a need for mic sims. For that matter, I have never used the factory cab sims, nor do I ever use the "air" or "drive" parameters in the cab block.

I understand your post completely. I only point out that you have a unique standing here. You are considered by most, if not all as an authority on cab ir's. I only want to be sure that the rest of us mere mortals don't think that the mic sims should never be used because of your statement.
 
mitch236 said:
I only want to be sure that the rest of us mere mortals don't think that the mic sims should never be used because of your statement.
Quite the contrary, the default assumption is far more likely to be that mic sims are an essential element in creating "good tone." My comments were made in an effort to point out the fallacy in this assumption.

There is no "should" or "should not" in the Axe-Fx. There is a near-infinity of combinations of variables, however, including mic sims. It behooves the serious user to isolate those variables he will manipulate to the minimum number required to achieve his goal, else he will likely chase his tail endlessly.

Mic sims became a standard in modelers because of the widespread practice of close-mic'ing, which was adopted for practical reasons (e.g., minimizing unwanted bleed from other instruments) unrelated to guitar tone. Since the Axe-Fx uses real-time convolution to implement cab sims, and since there are farfield cab sims available in the factory sims as well as via third parties (including myself), Axe users have an option that no other modeler offered: the ability to accurately recreate the tone of a cab as you, the player, would hear it. If you avail yourself of that option, then mic sims are not only unnecessary, they will more often as not serve as an impediment.

The above notwithstanding, I take no position on "should" or "should not." There is no morality intrinsic in the use of signal processing gear. There is only practicality.
 
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