What is "it" that the axe fx is missing?

I been blind testing people with amps and the axe-fx lately while messing around doing recording. The people that generally complain about the axe seem to have serious hearing loss in the high frequency ranged. They also run tube amps so abused the microphonic tubes and other problems have become normal to them.

However at the same time if i sit down with them once they realize they are using it, and go through and tweak stuff more, they tend to avoid the overblown highs. Since I can more easily find and notch just the ranges they need.

Its been a learning experience setting up it for someone other than myself.
 
admgloval said:
Hah hah, this is me. Not in a band and just got the AFXII for my own personal playing hobby. I now play through Studio Monitors and while it doesn't sound anything like playing through a 4x12 cab, it's sounds good enough and the range of tones you can get using IR's is a lot better(IMO), than being stuck with the one dimensional sound that you also get from playing through a real cab.
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I don't find playing through real cabs "one dimensional" at all with the AXE FX ... :confused:; such a curious statement ...??? In fact, I/we have an amazing palette of colors, tone, clean, distortion, eq, filters, gain, time effects, deep/advanced params, even different guitars, PUps, volume knob rolls, etc ...YMMV I suppose.
 
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∞Fractals said:
I don't find playing through real cabs "one dimensional" at all with the AXE FX ... :confused:; such a curious statement ...??? In fact, I/we have an amazing palette of colors, tone, clean, distortion, eq, filters, gain, time effects, deep/advanced params, etc ...YMMV I supose.
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What I mean is that no matter what amp/preset you use, it is always going to sound like whatever power amp/cab you are playing through. Yes amp tones themselves differ somewhat but they will kind of tend to sound pretty similar. When I initally got the Axe, I used it through my Mesa 290 and 4x12 cab with cab sims off. I noticed that no matter what amp I picked, things kind of sounded the same, fairly "one dimensional"(maybe that isn't the best term to use). With studio monitor speakers and cab sims on, you get the full tonal capability of the axe.
 
fatoni said:
it has nothing to do with the sound really. its that little bouncy feel you get. ive had an axe for like six years and cant see myself without it. i just missed having a tube amp and found one for a steal and just kinda noticed a little difference. im assuming its the studio monitors but i remember this being a bigger issue when frfr cabs seemed to suck and it was vers 5.xx on the ultra.
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It's gotta be the studio monitors. What size speakers do they have?
I use Studio monitors myself but I bought 8" ones to push more air & a sub too to get the full range. One thing I can tell you is when I owned my PA I had 2x15's on each side with two 18" subs and 1x15's each side for side fills. Total 8,000w. I've also at one point had a pair of self powered QSC with 15's @ 1,000w each. Playing thru either of those setups was night & day & I can assure you that I would take either one of those setups with the AxeFX over any Tube Amp or even multiple tube Amps hands down, every single time, without question! :)
It has A LOT to do with how much air you're pushing & Fletcher Munson & of course the quality of whatever FRFR setup ya have.
 
StickMan said:
Assuming that you're not putting the guitar through the PA. As soon as you go through the PA, wouldn't you do just as well to use an IR and go direct?
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Not exactly.

The stage wash from guitar cabs affects a lot of things. The sustain / feedback of your guitar. How your bandmates hear / feel your parts. The first few rows of the audience. Bleed into other mics (if you get rid of 100% of the mic bleed, it can sound sterile).

Whether or not any of the above is desirable is another debate. Some love the silent stage, others don't.

We play with FRFR only but I can tell from mixing the songs, it's not the same energy as with real cabs. I regularly use the FRFR bleed into the vocal mics to add energy to the mixes.
 
admgloval said:
What I mean is that no matter what amp/preset you use, it is always going to sound like whatever power amp/cab you are playing through. Yes amp tones themselves differ somewhat but they will kind of tend to sound pretty similar. When I initally got the Axe, I used it through my Mesa 290 and 4x12 cab with cab sims off. I noticed that no matter what amp I picked, things kind of sounded the same, fairly "one dimensional"(maybe that isn't the best term to use). With studio monitor speakers and cab sims on, you get the full tonal capability of the axe.
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I guess we have to respectfully disagree ;)... I still get lost in all the choices I have (in the thousands if not 100's of thousands).

While the cabs do have their own frequency response and other tonal characteristics, I feel it's the least of my constraints. I run two/stereo 2x12's Friedman cabs (loaded with V30s powered w/ a Matrix GT1000FX), and while it may provide some color, I don't ever feel the need to go find a cab IR to make it sound "right".

FOH/FRFR and recording is a different matter.

As others have noted, I too agree the degree to which you can actually/easily move air (power, speaker cone size) will determine the "feel of the amp in the room" in any situation.

But for playing/jammin' ... "real" cabs are not a constraint, it's a benefit. I also "point" them up (20*-30*) to my ears so I am "in the beam".:cool:
 
Real speaker/cab (vs Mic'd IR sound) coupled with real tube power amp is a big difference. Another smaller difference is that there are a few milliseconds of latency for both A/D and D/A conversion. Input impedence might be different too. There are lots of subtle differences.
 
∞Fractals said:
I guess we have to respectfully disagree ;)... I still get lost in all the choices I have (in the thousands if not 100's of thousands).

While the cabs do have their own frequency response and other tonal characteristics, I feel it's the least of my constraints. I run two/stereo 2x12's Friedman cabs (loaded with V30s powered w/ a Matrix GT1000FX), and while it may provide some color, I don't ever feel the need to go find a cab IR to make it sound "right".

FOH/FRFR and recording is a different matter.

As others have noted, I too agree the degree to which you can actually/easily move air (power, speaker cone size) will determine the "feel of the amp in the room" in any situation.

But for playing/jammin' ... "real" cabs are not a constraint, it's a benefit. I also "point" them up (20*-30*) to my ears so I am "in the beam".:cool:
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Hey, when it comes down to it, it's what you like to hear and that's all that matters. Just understand that what you are hearing isn't "authentic" when it comes to certain tones. For instance, if you were to pick a Vox type amp, you wouldn't be hearing an "authentic" Vox tone, it would be the equivalent of taking a Vox, running out of the effects loop send into your Matrix and Friedman 2x12's. It might sound good but it isn't "authentic". That is why is switched to the studio monitors, to get the "authentic" tones.
 
well the power amp/cab/speaker plays as big or bigger role in your tone than the preamp does, so it only makes sense that there'd be a "sameness" running through a power amp and cab. i did a Marshall amp shootout once through the same IR and even though there were differences, they definitely sounded much more similar than you'd think.
 
admgloval said:
Hey, when it comes down to it, it's what you like to hear and that's all that matters. Just understand that what you are hearing isn't "authentic" when it comes to certain tones. For instance, if you were to pick a Vox type amp, you wouldn't be hearing an "authentic" Vox tone, it would be the equivalent of taking a Vox, running out of the effects loop send into your Matrix and Friedman 2x12's. It might sound good but it isn't "authentic". That is why is switched to the studio monitors, to get the "authentic" tones.
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Good point. I don't go for "exact replicas", so I concede this is a great use of the AXE FX.
 
jlynnb1 said:
well the power amp/cab/speaker plays as big or bigger role in your tone than the preamp does, so it only makes sense that there'd be a "sameness" running through a power amp and cab. i did a Marshall amp shootout once through the same IR and even though there were differences, they definitely sounded much more similar than you'd think.
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So I can see how this would be true for a modeler, and it's an easy assumption to think it translates to the "real thing" - I just wonder how much so - I'm able to get close enough to any sound I'm seeking.

So I may have bad ears or don't care enough that it's "exactly" the same as the Beatles in 1966 or U2 in 1981. The AXEFX palate allows for so much variability, I'm happy. :)

Interesting discussion for sure.
 
I've spent a number of years using boutique tube amps and boutique pedals. I should post a picture of my old setup sometime. It was amazing : Boogie Lonestar (with some mods), big pedalboard (Keely, Strymon, Empress, Catalinbread, Lexicon, Eventide, etc). When I got the AxeFX I sold all of my tube amps and most of that other gear.

So is the AxeFX exactly the same or "better" than that other gear? That's subjective. My stage sound involves 2 FRFR cabs and a flat response amp. It sounds fantastic. Sometimes I use in-ears for larger stages. That also sounds fantastic. The biggest thing I can say is that since getting my AxeFX system, I've been told many times my FOH engineers "that is the best guitar tone I've ever had at my board". And that's plugged directly into the PA via the XLR outs. As guitarists we get accustomed to the "feel" of an amp moving air onstage, or the directional response of a specific cabinet type. I won't lie; standing in front of a Marshall stack is an amazing physical sensation. But... when you're playing in a venue, the most important thing is for your band to have a great overall sound, and you get that by providing the mixing engineer a great guitar sound so they can assemble the best possible mix. Even if you are mixing yourself from the stage, you want the total combined sound of the band to be as good as possible.

Each of us develops volume / tone / "amp feel" preferences when practicing alone, and when rehearsing with bandmates. I won't attempt to convince anyone that a specific approach is better than what they prefer. But I will argue that none of our preferences should get in the way of having the entire band sound fantastic, and that is where the AxeFX shines. I can produce my tones, at any volume, with perfect reliability, and when our mixing engineer, who has heard a lot of guitarists in his long career (including me over the past few decades!), says "that sounds incredible", I trust him.

Also : the Lonestar model in the AxeFX is gorgeous and dimensional. That's an amp that I know intimately, and the only thing it's missing is the smell of hot tubes :)
 
Sleestak said:
Also : the Lonestar model in the AxeFX is gorgeous and dimensional. That's an amp that I know intimately, and the only thing it's missing is the smell of hot tubes :)
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I heard glade is going to be offering hot tubes, and burnt amplifier + stale beer. As new scents.
 
I personally think that the only thing the Axe is "missing" is that it's not a loud amp. Thus you don't have the feeling of a loud amp cranked in a room. Power amp and a Cab fixes this.

However, the sound of the Axe-Fx is the same. If you compare recordings of the Fractal and the real amp there is no difference in my opinion. The only difference is the "in the room feel" that playing through studio monitors won't get you.
 
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