What do people mean when they say modelers "lack the amp feel"?

TheRobotCow

Member
Let me just preface this by saying I have close to ZERO experience with tube amps so I'm just trying to understand/gain some more insight on this.

What do people mean when they say modelers lack that "amp feel"? How does an amp into a loadbox with the same IR compare? Is it just a mental thing knowing you're playing a physical amp vs a modeler? I do know that some people will just flat out detest a modeler because its digital and not analog. Also i do know that modelers are more of a recorded guitar tone vs amp in the room tone, is this where people are getting the two confused maybe?

Thanks!
 
That was discussed here in several threads already.
I use modelling since 20 years and only got my selfamde tube amp left.
With actual Fractal products, there is no lack of feel anymore.
And yes, "amp in the room" is only possible if you use a appropriate cab or speaker with loud volume that is moving air.
And this is independent of the amp itself.
Doesn't matter if it is a tube, solid-state or modelling amp.
That is what confusing people.
If you mic your tube amp+cab an listen to the recording or in another room via monitors, this is the sound you got with Fractals.
If you want to have "amp in the room", then connect a power-amp and a cab.
Myself using cabs with PA fullrange speakers and Class-D power-amp at rehearsal and I got my amp in the room thing working.
 
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You'll probably get all sorts of answers to this but I will add that "feel" by its nebulous nature can be neither quantified by the individual or verified by an outside party. That being said for me nothing beats an amp in a room and its response but modelers such as Fracatal units do a very good job replicating that experience (at least as a mic'd amp) and are more versatile and convenient as a bonus especially for recording.
 
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"It doesn't feel like the real amp" is always given as this weird blanket statement totally disregarding that there isn't just one amp feel.

We translate what we perceive to how the guitar "feels" to play in our hands. The EQ, gain, volume, any sag a tube amp might have when played loud, the placement in the room etc all shape how we perceive it.

Fractal offers a million options to shape how the thing feels to play, yet people expect that just by using the Authentic Amp block controls everything should line up exactly like they prefer when you have things like the Input dynamics, Output compression, speaker impedance curves etc features to help you fine tune it. Most people just don't want to put in any work it seems.

In the majority of cases people are not comparing like for like either. If you ask "well did you use a decibel meter to match their volumes" you get nothing.
 
The first big difference is , that tube amps are LOUD. They are made for that , make the sound LOUD
even the smallest ones. In fact, there is not so much volume difference between a 15W and 100W tube amps (not exact, but you have an idea).
above 100 dB to cover a real drums, all is perceived as really LOUD.

Second, there will be virtually NO sound difference between a modern modeler like Axe FX + power amp + real cab.
And it will sound as loud as the real amp, or even more.
The amp in the room feeling comes from the real speaker moving air into the room.

Third (I don't know it it can be made), a real amp plugged into FRFR or monitor speakers will sound about the same as the AXE FX model into the same FRFR or monitor speakers.

I may be wrong of course ;)
 
I think it's the above - last valve experience I had was a 64 (original) SG in front of a 2204 Marshall, absolutely cranked.

The guitar was a live, it was dynamic, sensitive, amazing - in a way I've never had at home.

And it was so loud, I couldn't hear straight for 2-3 days

I've also played my Fractal at close to that volume, very little to zero difference - people play a modeller at 1/10th the volume through smaller speakers and they say 'the feel isn't there'

That same guitar (the SG) was pretty uninspiring at home, but get the guitar vibrating with the sheer volume - best thing I've ever played
 
I've also played my Fractal at close to that volume, very little to zero difference - people play a modeller at 1/10th the volume through smaller speakers and they say 'the feel isn't there'

This!
Crank up the volume on a big enough FRFR system and with the last Fractal generation it should be as much fun as when playing an amp.
Though you'd need to try real amps anyway, so you know what you are hunting.
 
It's always a matter of volume imo like everyone is saying. People play the Axe through small studio monitors and compare that to a 4x12 rig even.
 
What do people mean when they say modelers lack that "amp feel"?
In the early days of modeling the sound was more like they used a fuzz or distortion pedal with various filters to imitate the speakers. If you ever used a Fender Blender or a Fuzz Face, the feeling was closer to that. It didn’t respond to dynamics when picking or reducing the volume.

A good tube amp is analog and has almost infinite states between a clean sine wave and clipping that results in a square wave, where the old boxes really didn’t, they lacked the nuances and felt like they were only clean or only dirty. On stage, an electric rock guitar is a curious beast in that it requires an interaction with another device, the amplifier, coupled through physics, the movement of air from the speaker, to sound the way we like. Take away or change any of those and the feeling of the system changes and, because we’re touching the strings and body of the guitar we feel how the guitar behaves differently. The physics go much deeper than just the physics of the air moving though, because the electrons flowing through the circuitry, including the tubes, constantly react to each other, and the components pushing and pulling that flow cause the amp to react and change how it moves the speaker. Those changes are also part of the “amp feel” that was missing in early solid-state amplifiers and modelers. It’s not that we’re touching the amp to sense its feel, we’re sensing the guitar’s response to the air pressure waves coming from the amp, but we call it “the feel of the amp.”

Every parameter we can set in the Amp and Cab block is applied to the signal, then the resulting signal is processed again, multiple times, and eventually passed through to the Cab block which applies the IR as a filter. This is where Cliff’s design has succeeded so well because he’s studied those in-between states across the amp’s circuit, and the components, along with how the speaker’s movement affects the signal from the amp and pushes back to the transformer, and figured out how to define it all using mathematical algorithms.

Years ago a friend of mine was involved in the very early days of attempts to model amplifiers, and he said to pay attention to the field, so I have always kept my eyes open, watching for progress. I bounced off several attempts and was not impressed until I got my first Fractal, but it was the current generation of units that convinced me that they’ve arrived, especially after Cygnus was released.

Finally, I have two nice boutique amps that my friends enjoy using when I’m not using them, and they use my Fractals when I want to get their opinions of some preset I’ve been working on, and they have been very happy with the way the modelers sound and feel, especially the last couple releases of the firmware. Last Wednesday I was standing beside the rig listening as a friend was running through a particular preset, and it sounded just like a big Mesa stack as he gave it a workout. He was grinning from ear to ear when he stepped down, and I specifically asked him how it felt and he said it was “just right”. I thought that was cool, because we’re past the “it doesn’t feel like an amp” B.S.
 
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I think it comes down to the difference of hearing the sound from a cab versus the sound of a miked cab.
I think this is because a microphone can never capture the whole sound of a cab, only part of the speaker it's pointed at and also you hear it through another speaker that is never fully flat. Not to mention the phase differences of the different frequencies.
It takes getting used to but what you hear with a modeller through a FRFR is much closer to what an audience hears and in the end, IMHO, this is better because you can have more control over what they hear.
Not so with a microphone pointing at a cab because there are to many variables you can't control (type, position,....)
 
It’s been a while for me, but from what I remember, the feel of a tube amp moving all that air, the volume, the way that volume interacts with the guitar, the sustain from that interaction, the physical feeling of the back of your pants legs vibrating, the things in the room rattling….no recording will capture that. My opinion (just an opinion) is that’s what they may be talking about.
The irony is that now, we can grab a Fractal modeler, and get a sound better than we could record that same amp. Will never replace that amp feeling though.

Thanks
Pauly
Let me just preface this by saying I have close to ZERO experience with tube amps so I'm just trying to understand/gain some more insight on this.

What do people mean when they say modelers lack that "amp feel"? How does an amp into a loadbox with the same IR compare? Is it just a mental thing knowing you're playing a physical amp vs a modeler? I do know that some people will just flat out detest a modeler because its digital and not analog. Also i do know that modelers are more of a recorded guitar tone vs amp in the room tone, is this where people are getting the two confused maybe?

Thanks!
 
I think it comes down to the difference of hearing the sound from a cab versus the sound of a miked cab.
I think this is because a microphone can never capture the whole sound of a cab, only part of the speaker it's pointed at and also you hear it through another speaker that is never fully flat. Not to mention the phase differences of the different frequencies.
It takes getting used to but what you hear with a modeller through a FRFR is much closer to what an audience hears and in the end, IMHO, this is better because you can have more control over what they hear.
Not so with a microphone pointing at a cab because there are to many variables you can't control (type, position,....)

I think this is spot on! It's got more to do with the sound of a real cab vs sound of a miked cab.

One of the main reason i started using a Fractal was that i often didn't like what the audience was hearing. My tube amp sounded great to me on stage, but when the cab was miked with a 57 and sendt through the PA it didn't sound like wanted to. With the Fm3 i can create tones that sound closer to what i like to hear for the audience. Even though the sound/feel is never completely like the sound of a real amp with a real cab.
 
As you can see here, there are my different explanations for “feel” based on each individual’s experience with specific amps, guitars, and rooms. Just make sure you’re playing your fractal gear at gig volume through quality speakers and you will get a great experience. It’s impossible to recreate every individual’s nostalgia.
 
I think this is because a microphone can never capture the whole sound of a cab, only part of the speaker it's pointed at and also you hear it through another speaker that is never fully flat.
Another thing is that the beam of a guitar cab shows a plethora of different sounds from too shrill to too dull when you just move your ears in front of the cab. Instead of fixing bad amp settings people compensate by just moving their head around until they find a place where they like the sound, and no matter how crappy it is, there is always a place where it gets better. You can imagine that the mic gets something all different and the player leaves it to the mixing guy to get something useable out of that.

So ab IR also needs to compensate for peoples personal sweet spots (everybody has his own unique way to setup his cab) and if one is used for years to always aim his cab to his knees, it will be a long way for him to play a modeler through an FRFR.
 
It means they haven't played Fractal. :cool:

Seriously though, earlier generation modelers didn't capture the complex dynamics.

Another issue though, is people tend to listen to modelers at far lower volumes than tube amps. This gives the illusion that things are not as "dynamic" due to Fletcher-Munson, the lack of tactile sensation and the lack of acoustic feedback into the guitar.
 
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